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February 11, 2011 |  23 comments |  Print | E-Mail Your Opinion  

Editorial Team

AC Debate: Egypt's Revolution

Editorial Team: In response to the ongoing turmoil in Egypt, Atlantic Community published an article arguing that the West has nothing to fear from the Muslim Brotherhood getting into power in the country. The article stimulated an intense debate with more than 40 comments. Here are some of the main arguments. Let us know what you think on the matter!

Our member Gillian Kennedy from King's College London is writing her Ph.D. on strategies within the Egyptian Islamists movement and recently argued on atlantic-community.org that the West's political leaders must not be afraid to engage with the Muslim Brotherhood (MB).

The MB is not seeking an Iranian style theocracy she says, but rather a democratic system with conservative Islamic norms. She argues that the younger generation of Muslim Brothers is even open to dialogue with Israel and stated that in no other country is there an Islamist movement so experienced with working with a coalition of broad based groups.

Ed Husain, Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations made similar arguments in this video statement:



Gillian Kennedy's article provoked intense debate with more than 40 comments. Many atlantic-community.org members are concerned about the Muslim Brotherhood gaining power in Egypt, while others are less apprehensive or stress that the West cannot and should not interfere in Cairo after decades of support for Mubarak's brutal authoritarian regime.

Felix Seidler (University of Würzburg) stated that, "after the failure of US and European policy, Westerners should keep quiet with demands or proposals and, instead, let the Egyptians find their own way." He was joined by Anamaria Tamas (Institute for Cultural Diplomacy) who argued that the West should not "automatically fear an Islamic alternative/opposition to Mubarak, but encourage the choice of the Egyptian people, regardless of what that might be. After all, that's what democracy means."

The author of the piece, Gillian Kennedy responded by saying that "banning Islamist parties from taking part in an open political process has only played into the hands of the more extreme fringes of the Islamist movements. The West's policy of aiding authoritarian regimes is counter productive because it results in more fervent anti-West feeling across the Arab world...the present revolution that we are seeing on the streets of Cairo is about economic and social grievances, not about some anti-Israeli/global jihad crusade." However, Niklas Anzinger (University of Bayreuth) argued that is in the West's interest to "help build democratic institutions that can in the end outplay the MB's influence."

All commenters agreed that the Muslim Brotherhood is the strongest and best organized opposition group. Yet, some members like Marco Funk (University of Central Florida), pointed out that our discussion should not focus on the MB because "what we are seeing is a broadly-based popular movement against the Mubarak regime, not a revolution led by the Muslim Brotherhood." He went on to argue that the majority of the Muslim Brotherhood is anti-western because of the West's continued support of the Mubarak regime and that religion played only a secondary role.

Marcel Lewicki (University of Munich) added that so far "Copts and Muslims, secularists and religious people have set their differences aside and protest (for the most part) peacefully and side by side." He also rejected several arguments making comparisons between the situation in Egypt today with Iran 1979.

Regarding the democratic credentials of the Muslim Brotherhood, Ms. Kennedy persuasively argued that "from examining the previous 30 years of MB policies, they are willing to take part in the democratic process and to form alliances with other secular or leftist parties in order to form a coalition of governance in Egypt."

Despite this, a few commenters remained unconvinced that the MB are committed democrats. They were concerned that they would only use the democratic process, cooperation and non-violence to gain power, after which they would renege on their commitments. Their plan according to John Hadjisky (blogger) is thus: "One person. One vote. One time." He was also concerned about the possibility of the MB starting a "proxy war" with Israel by gaining control of Hamas and making incursions into Gaza.

Niklas Anzinger emerged as one of the most outspoken critics of the Muslim Brotherhood and voiced his concerned that the US administration was considering "involving the MB in a prospective democratic process". However, he remained optimistic on the developments in Tunisia at the moment, "where there are indeed a lot of indications of democratic change without Islamist bypasses."

Dear members of atlantic-community.org,

  • Are you supportive of the ongoing popular uprising in Egypt? Or are you
    primarily concerned about groups like the Muslim Brotherhood gaining power?

  • What do you think is the best approach the US and Europe should adopt toward Egypt?

  • In a broader context, do you believe that the current wave of uprisings throughout North Africa and the Middle East could spread even further? How can a democratic transition be best supported?

 

Read related articles from atlantic-community.org members:

 

Photo License: CC BY 2.0 Nick Bygon

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Comments
Greg Randolph Lawson

February 10, 2011

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I argued in comments to the Ioan Mircea Paşcu's piece the following:

"There are no easy answers how to respond to the unrest in the Middle East at the moment. I think its safe to say that the entire West stands behind the notion of the region becoming populated by western oriented, liberal democracies that embrace women's rights, minority rights, etc.

Whether this is the actual end game in the region is debateable and certainly unknowable in the short-term. Could such an eventuality evolve over the period of several decades? Of course. However, the West seems to have difficulty understanding that just because other peoples in other regions want to increase their material well being through better jobs and the capacity to obtain more comforts, does not mean they share all Western values...

Sure the elites of various societities may subscribe to remarkably similar views, but do the 'people?'

The world remains far from homogeneized. As long as it is, there will always be some issues that are irreconcilable except through force or through clever diplomacy that obfuscates rather than elucidates core differences...

So what to do? Mostly, wait and see. It is not a mark of wisdom to rush to judgement on what history's verdict will be. Too many have tried that before and been quite disappointed. Orderly transitions, not revolutionary overthrows should be the outcome sought. "

I suppose that the above selections sound "cautious" or maybe even slightly cynical. However, the thing that keeps getting lost amidst all the sense of euphoria about "democratization" is that a democracy can empower those that are the antithesis of what the West considers democratic. This does not mean we should turn a blind eye to the demonstrations. Nor does it mean we can't attempt to use limited leverage to open the political system in Egypt. That is consistent with Western ideals. However, many seem to want the West, and especially the U.S., to dump Mubarak immediately.

That is exactly the kind of thing that opens the door to Jacobinism. After all, I am sure no one thought Robespierre would be so aggressive with the guillotine. Nor did many expect a Corsican corporal to take advantage of unrest to become an Emperor. The same thing could be said when the Germans sent a certain Mr. Lenin into Russia during WWI and when an Ayatollah recording on audiotapes in Paris returned to Iran in 79.

Every case is unique and I do not argue that radicalization is an inevitable result of Mubarak being unceremoniusly taken out of power. Yet, it certainly is a possibility. Yes, coddling dictators forever is an act guaranteed to breed instability over the long term. But how those dictators are dealt with in the short term can also yield many other unforseen problems. This is why the West must support a transition that is likely too slow to appease the demostrators (and Western ideological preferences), yet also a real transition rather than a theatrical production dedicated to ensconcing the current entrenched political structure.

Slow and deliberate. That is the best thing to be. Less is a betrayal of our ideals. More is to invite chaos, which is the parent of instability and extreme violence.
 
Michael  Schuster

February 10, 2011

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Greg,

I agree with your call to be "slow and deliberate." That probably rules out elections for the next three months at least. Obama seems to support the Mubarak plan for elections in September. I do think they need to be earlier, but it probably takes more than three months to properly plan them.

The West can help Egypt with the development of a fair and transparent electoral system and judicial reforms. German Foreign Minister Westerwelle made such promises and called upon the Egyptian government to:

"1. the lifting of the state of emergency;
2. an end to open and covert intimidation of demonstrators and the media;
3. the release of all political prisoners and
4. the implementation of constitutional reform."

"Germany intends to support Egpyt and other countries in the region within the scope of what is known as a transformation partnership."
http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/Aussenpolitik/Laender/Aktuelle_Ar...

I am not sure, whether our aid agencies are qualified to do all that. We don't have a good track record in Afghanistan, but it should be easier in Egypt.
 
John  Hadjisky

February 11, 2011

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The fiasco just witnessed on international television, in which the US government acted as if we'd gotten assurances that Mubarak was stepping down, only to find out he probably isn't, must be avoided. We apparently don't have a good "back channel" to the regime. Or, the CIA was trying to force Mubarak's hand?

I think the EU's Catherine Ashton didn't say anything quite as embarrassing as our CIA director, Leon Panetta. He said, in sworn testimony before Congress, that there was a "strong likelihood" he would step down. But, I think she was just equally surprised and disappointed?

Thoughts for a US or EU policy:

- The path to democracy should be slow and gradual. Elections will be closer to the final step, rather than the first or second step. Keep in mind, you never know if you have a democracy until the first peaceful transfer of power, which can by definition happen no sooner than the second regular election. There should be no rush to elections. That would mean starting small; for example, perhaps the various neighborhoods, who have banded together for self-protection, could evolve into permanent neighborhood councils of some sort? Keep the focus practical, rather than getting preoccupied with formalisms. No point trying to create instant, national institutions which in this chaos would have no credibility nor clear relationship to local matters.

- So far, it seems like a good idea to continue to encourage the Egyptian military to remain above the fray. If the military picks a side, but then splinters, the resulting power vacuum inside Egypt could be quite bloody and could set off war(s) in the region. Horribly, this may mean letting the protesters (some of whom are thugs) battle it out in the streets vs. the regime's paramilitary thugs, à la Iran. But, there's no guarantee that the outcome will be the same as Iran.
 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

February 11, 2011

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Just read an interesting comment from Harvard professor Stephen Walt:

“Ever since 9/11, Islamophobia has been a recurrent problem in a number of Western societies, including the United States. It's been fueled by opportunistic politicians, hate-mongering bloggers, and any number of the other usual suspects. The lingering fear of Islam undergirds the present concerns that the turmoil in Egypt might give groups like the Muslim Brotherhood greater political influence there.

Trying to inject reason and evidence into this sort of debate is usually futile, but I do wish to report some good news. Remember the avalanche of Muslim-based terrorism that was about to descend upon the West? Well, according to the EU's 2010 Terrorism Situation and Trend Report, the total number of terrorist incidents in Europe declined in 2009. Even more important, the overwhelming majority of these incidents had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam.”

See http://walt.foreignpolicy.com/.
 
Felix F. Seidler

February 11, 2011

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In my view, Islamophobia, terrorism and Al Qaida can be left aside. The Egyptian revolution, anyway, is not the work of Islamists, the West, NGOs or any other foreign actor; rather it is the Egyptian people´s revolution. Moreover, this is a revolution for freedom and not for another dictatorship. Within in the last weeks, I have not seen any burning Israeli or US flags in Egypt like in Tunisia, Yemen and Jordan. The only thing Egyptians and others demonstrated for was freedom. Hence, one can see that Egyptians likely will find their own way to democracy. Look, how the people reacted after Mubarak´s announcement to stay in office. They continued protesting for freedom, but, until now, they did so without violence.

Honestly, one has to say, Western intelligence, politicians and academics, mostly, failed before and during the revolution. Western government´s press statements signal, furthermore, they do not have a broad understanding or proficient plan of how to deal with the events. The revolution´s outcome will be the Egyptian´s result. Nevertheless, an Egyptian and, likely, Islamic democracy will not look like Germany´s, England´s or France´s. However, we will have to accept these differences. Implementing Western political systems in Islamic countries failed twice (Iraq, Afghanistan). My policy recommendation is, henceforth, Western governments should stay behind the fence line and cross fingers for the Egyptian people. Western government´s only active step should be, anyway, to guarantee overflight rights for Mubarak´s exile plane.

Personally, I would prefer Egypt´s military to pick the people´s side. Not the head of state, rather the people are a democratic country´s sovereign. Though, the best the generals can do now, is to escort Mubarak to the airport and say "good bye". Afterwards, the military may guarantee stability and provide circumstances for possible reforms and elections.
 
Eoin  Michael  Heaney

February 11, 2011

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Thank you all for your comments so far, please keep them coming!

Here is an interesting article from The Atlantic which downplays the influence of the MB in general and offers an explanation as to why they have been keeping relatively quiet of late:

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/02/the-muslim...




 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 11, 2011

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http://washingtoninstitute.org/templateC11.php?CID=543

Here is good news! Some have the polls in mind which very pusblished 2010, read what has become of the attitudes of the Egpytians:

- The Muslim Brotherhood is approved by just 15 percent of Egyptians -- and its leaders get barely 1 percent of the vote in a presidential straw poll. Asked to pick national priorities, only 12 percent of Egyptians choose sharia (Islamic law) over Egypt's regional leadership, democracy, or economic development.

- Surprisingly, when asked two different ways about the peace treaty with Israel, more support it (37 percent) than oppose it (27 percent)

- Even more surprisingly, opposition figure Mohamed ElBaradei has very little popular support -- just 3 percent

- As for Egyptian views of America, a narrow plurality (36 percent vs. 27 percent) say Egypt should have good relations with the United States. And only a small minority (8 percent) say the current uprising is against a "too pro-American" regime.

It seems that Maikel Nabil Sanad, who I interviewed lately, was absolutely right:

"Revolutions change the beliefs of the people. In the 1919 revolution female demonstrators were wearing the niqab, but after a few months they took off their Niqab for the first time in centuries. There are lots of secular slogans in El-Tahrir. There is no separation between sexes (and this is against beliefs of Islamists). This is the reason why I believe we are heading toward a liberal secular democracy."

http://www.propagandistmag.com/2011/02/07/interview-egyptian-protester
 
Joerg  Wolf

February 11, 2011

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@ Niklas

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

"Revolutions change the beliefs of the people."

I agree.

Are you now more optimistic that this revolution will end well for everyone in the region?
 
Unregistered User

February 11, 2011

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Well, this might not be a people's revolution, but a military coup. Keep in mind what Nick Kristof writes: "But the game isn’t over, and now a word of caution. I worry that senior generals may want to keep (with some changes) a Mubarak-style government without Mubarak. In essence the regime may have decided that Mubarak had become a liability and thrown him overboard — without any intention of instituting the kind of broad, meaningful democracy that the public wants. Senior generals have enriched themselves and have a stake in a political and economic structure that is profoundly unfair and oppressive. And remember that the military running things directly really isn’t that different from what has been happening: Mubarak’s government was a largely military regime (in civilian clothes) even before this. Mubarak, Vice President Suleiman and so many others — including nearly all the governors — are career military men. So if the military now takes over, how different is it?"
http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/11/avoiding-a-new-pharaoh/

 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 11, 2011

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@ Joerg

I wish all the best, but in order to make that happen I think it is wise to consider the impediments.

Mr. Schulz mentioned a good point, we have seen a military coup. There a lot steps that have to be taken on the road to democracy - that doesn´t come over night.

The polls indicated a hopeful stance of the people, but isn´t it more a glimpse of a dynamic process? How do the forces in power react? Are they willing and are they able for establish democratic participation? How will the forces react that are in favor of sabotaging such a process? How will the people react if the elder men in power do not comply with their desires? What about the collapsing economy?

 
John  Hadjisky

February 13, 2011

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"Well, this might not be a people's revolution, but a military coup."

Bastian Schulz has it exactly right.

I would be delighted to see a true people's revolution with real democracy. In my remarks, I am not trying to kill hope, just trying to keep it real.

I also have to wonder where these optimistic voices were when the Saddam regime fell.

But the editors want us to debate policy recommendations, rather than repeating previous debates about for example the Muslim Brotherhood.

So, my ideal policy may be summarized as:

pluralism before elections

That means develop civil society first, possibly including local or regional elections, and have definitive, national elections be closer to the final step rather than the first step. The ultimate goal is democracy.

My policy has the advantage that it can be pursued under various forms of government -- benign military dictatorship or some sort of civilian rule that emerges. Also, a big problem is corruption and cronyism. If the US, EU, UN promote, organize and even fund an election, and that election ends up being perceived as corrupt, then this is a setback for democracy.

Also, my policy has the advantage of being more fault-tolerant. We can encourage pluralism in a number of different programmes, and we can keep the programmes that work and that the Egyptians find appealing, and jettison the others. Whereas, a national election is sort of an all-or-nothing gambit. If it is seen as successful, that's great, but if not, it is a very visible and public failure, and that failure risks overshadowing other signs of progress in Egypt.
 
Joerg  Wolf

February 13, 2011

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At least one top US government officials is not concerned about the Muslim Brothers, but seems to agree with many points in Gilian Kennedy's article and with those by the "optimists" in the debate that followed on atlantic-community.org.

The US Director of National Intelligence James Clapper went even so far as to describe the Muslim Brotherhood as a “largely secular” organization in a House Intelligence Committee:



“The term ‘Muslim Brotherhood,’” Clapper said, “is an umbrella term for a variety of movements, in the case of Egypt, a very heterogeneous group, largely secular, which has eschewed violence and has decried Al Qaeda as a perversion of Islam… They have pursued social ends, a betterment of the political order in Egypt, et cetera. … In other countries, there are also chapters or franchises of the Muslim Brotherhood, but there is no overarching agenda, particularly in pursuit of violence, at least internationally.”
http://blogs.abcnews.com/thenote/2011/02/director-of-national-intel...

Clapper's remarks raised many eyebrows. Therefore, Jamie Smith, director of the office of public affairs for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence later said in a statement to ABC News: “To clarify Director Clapper’s point - in Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood makes efforts to work through a political system that has been, under Mubarak’s rule, one that is largely secular in its orientation – he is well aware that the Muslim Brotherhood is not a secular organization.”
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2011/02/office-of-the-direc...
 
Joerg  Wolf

February 13, 2011

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@ John

"That means develop civil society first, possibly including local or regional elections, and have definitive, national elections be closer to the final step rather than the first step. The ultimate goal is democracy."

I agree. Good plan.

"We can encourage pluralism in a number of different programmes, and we can keep the programmes that work and that the Egyptians find appealing, and jettison the others."

For instance?

Do you think any US and EU programs have a good track record? Do you think the Egyptians would welcome new initiatives at this time? Or will they be seen as yet another attempt to interfere with domestic politics?
 
Mawloud  Ould Daddah

February 13, 2011

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Can we imagine the devastative impact in the region of an Egypt ruled at the same time by Nasser and Hasan Al Banna and backed by Mahmud Ahmadinejad?Hosni Mubarak was not an angel of mercy but was,in a time of war against terrorism and extremism,a reliable support and a seriously reliable strategic shield and contained islamic extremism surge,a surge which must be adressed seriously and quickly,before islamic extremists turn Egypt into a new Iran,with the support of nuclear Ahmadinejad Iran,which finances Muslim Brothers attempt to take power and turn Egypt into a new Hamastan and into a new Talibanistan,with the financial and military support of Ahmadinejad and of Hezbollah and Hamas and with the "mediatic" and financial support of Al Qaida
 
Stephan  Vormann

February 14, 2011

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Thanks everyone for sharing some interesting perspectives and information!

I'm certainly not an expert on the region, but nevertheless follow the events with great interest.

I read a comment a few days ago arguing that Turkey could and should play a bigger role in a possible democratic transformation in Egypt and indeed other countries in the region that might follow the Egytian and Tunesian example. Has anyone any thoughts/ expertise on that?
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 14, 2011

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Mr. Vormann,

Turkish compliance would be a bad idea from my perspective. A few months ago I argued that Turkey is shifting towards an Islamist route - http://www.atlantic-community.org/index/articles/view/Turkey%27s_Is...

At the moment there is a trial taking place in Turkey against a military "conspiracy" against the government which is made up, as far as I can believe the author of the articles mentioned in my comment: http://www.propagandistmag.com/2011/02/12/erdogan-de-secularizing-t...
 
Stephan  Vormann

February 15, 2011

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Dear Mr Anzinger,

Thank you for your quick response and your insights into the topic.

I have read the articles and the subsequent discussions you mentioned in your response. Without wanting to turn this into an argument about Turkish politics, I think we can both agree that your point of view on where Turkey is heading at the moment is highly contested.

Just one quick remark concerning the ongoing trial in Turkey: Officers being trialled for their alleged participation in planning a coup can also be seen as a sign that Turkish democracy is finally emancipating itself from the guardian role the army has had over the last decades, thereby fullfilling one of the key EU-demands for a possible accession of the country. The Turkish army undoubtedly has played a significant, stabilising role in the history of the Turkish Republic. Nevertheless, such a strong role is not in compliance with Western perceptions of democracy and is troublesome to say the least.

Any other views on whether or not Turkey has the potential to be a more credible broker than the West in Egypt and other places?
 
Gerhard  Mersmann

February 16, 2011

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The uprising in Egypt and Tunisia makes it necessary to reconsider the routines of western diplomacy.

Considering the established routines of Western diplomacy in the North African world there should have been a reinvention long before the people arose to throw out their autocratic rulers. Too long its behaviour was a compendium of old shaped reasonability born in times of colonialism. The only measure to judge Arabic people and circumstances had been the civilization western style. The Entrance into Islamic culture which can be resolutely differentiated and elaborated was never mastered because of a deep and compromising lack of respect. And respect is the condition to share absolutely while conversing with this part of the world.

The erosion of the monolithic Islamic systems in the east took place out of the awareness of the west. While the new administration of the US was busy by counting the losses of a frontal, non-emphatic and aggressive foreign policy in the last decade, a new middle class was counting its losses within its own progress. Although there have been a lot of achievements in education, although there was some money to earn and although there was the participation in a new global communication network, the countries remained as if nothing had happened.

Whether in Egypt or in Tunisia, the economic progress did not correspond with democratisation. The specific fault of these countries had been a rising wealth of a new middle class while at the mean time a growing number of working class members were pauperizing. The opportunity to rise in the social scale by getting a better education was a cul-de-sac and the educated took the employments of the workers instead. Corresponding with a growing wish to be an active member of decision processes, the new powers of the old societies came into contradiction to power. While the autocratic rulers repeated their sermons of discipline and hardship of life and quoted the Koran, especially the youth grew inpatient.

The hesitation of the western world during the rebellions in Tunis and Cairo disappointed deeply. The demonstrating and their life risking young people on the streets were convinced to handle the situation in the most democratic way possible. The loyal attitude towards the old rulers of at first the US and second Europe evoked a disappointment very difficult to mend. The current situation should be used to reconsider western attitude towards the Islamic hemisphere. The rising dynamic there contributes to the demographic pressure, the best ally of democracy.

There is a very slim line left. It ought to be stronger between the old democracies and the young, upcoming countries, facing a period of enlightenment and democratisation. The old tools and habits of post colonial diplomacy should be transferred to the museums.



 
John  Hadjisky

February 18, 2011

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@Joerg

"For instance?"

Well, neither of our governments (US or EU) can claim to be the most effective Western actors so far. That honor goes to Google and social media, which outperformed the CIA and the quasi-public German Foundations, not to mention the Quai d'Orsay. The later has been has been strangely quiet (at least in this discussion).

It is tempting to suggest that all democracy promotion initiatives be privatized.

But that isn't realistic. I suppose our governments must be given a policy so that, like the less gifted children at school, they can feel like they helped. And, perhaps the Bush democracy agenda, or Obama's speech, actually helped create an atmosphere. So...

Encourage professional societies, cultural events, etc. that are pluralistic. This is a delicate matter, since countries like Egypt have (grudgingly) accepted the peace treaty with Israel, but have never accepted normalization.

Sending American or European professionals to these Egyptian events would immediately raise difficult questions -- are some of the attendees Jewish? Jewish or not, have they been to professional or cultural events in Israel? Aren't they, therefore, spies? But perhaps it could be finessed. Google, etc. seems to have managed, so far.

In that spirit, I suppose organizations like Gillian Kennedy's employer, the Tamer Institute for Community Education in Ramallah, Palestine, ought to be commended for permitting her to debate here on A-C, where neutral or even pro-US (and by implication, potentially pro-Israel) points of view are sometimes advanced without apology.

Still: even Ms. Kennedy, so far, seems uncomfortable engaging the substance of certain points of view, preferring to stick with the safe position: Egyptian Islamists who engaged in "terrorist activities in 1997" (her words) are "bogeymen" in 2011. A brief (by local standards) pause (as far as we know...) in terrorism apparently causes them to wink out of existence, like the monster inside every closet. Thus, any weighing of evidence of their potential to revert to their old ways is conveniently rendered moot.

Some of the personnel from before '97 will likely be MB candidates for parliament. In any meaningful, national elections, it seems to me the events before 1997 must be put on the table. Perhaps I ought to refine my earlier policy statement. "Pluralism before elections" perhaps needs to be "pluralism and normalization before national elections".

By this, I specifically do NOT mean "prevent Egypt from holding national elections until they normalize with their neighbor".

Indeed, we should encourage local elections ASAP. What I mean is, US and EU policy shouldn't organize, subsidize or otherwise be involved in Egyptian national elections (perhaps, not even monitoring), until normalization occurs, or at least, is on the horizon. Willingness to at least consider normalization with the only established, mainstream civil society in the neighborhood would be a sign that Egyptian civil society has gained the confidence to assert itself against the Islamists (violent and non-violent wings). Until that happens, Western resources spend on national elections are likely to be a complete waste, or at best, a cynical propaganda exercise.
 
Gerhard  Mersmann

February 18, 2011

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According to the disaster of diplomatic performance especially of the European states there seems to be a development to the worse in cases of Libya and Bahrain.

Especially in the case of Muammar al-Gaddafi the credibility of the west is on the brink. If the term of rogue state had ever a serious meaning it is fitting to the Libya of this tyrant. There is no development to the better. Al-Gaddafi always supported international terrorism, he is responsible for systematic torture and the violation of Human Rights and press freedom is at the far bottom of the international scale.

The fact, that almost 1,5 million refugees from all parts of Africa are captured in camps to avoid their migration to Europe should never be the reason for keeping distance towards a democratic movement over there. Although Europe would face rising challenges its own credibility is at dramatic risk if the toleration of this dictatorship will continue and no support of the democratic movement will be organized.

The often outspoken spiritual and economic strength of democracy is at risk, if Europe does not take action immediately.
 
Marcel  Lewicki

February 18, 2011

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I think we can agree that we don't want to make this a discussion about Ergenekon and cleavages in Turkish society, but I do believe that Turkey, such as it is, can play a very important - and productive - role in the future of the Middle East.

Turkey's foreign policy of "zero problems", introduced by Ahmet Davutoglu a couple of years back, has seen a shift away from a Euro-centric foreign policy to a foreign policy centered on Turkey's "near abroad": The Caucasus, Iran and the Near East. Europe still plays an important role, of course, but it is understandable that Turkey, with a currently unclear perspective towards EU membership, is trying to mend some fences with its more immediate neighbours.

Turkey's foreign policy, of course, is not generally led by the idea of "spreading democracy", but then, neither is the West's. However, Abdullah Gül in his visit to Tehran last week was probably one of the few visitors to Tehran that got away with calling for more democracy in Iran.

Much of the same holds true for the current crises in the Maghreb and in Egypt. Before the Europeans or Americans got round to calling for democracy, Turkey already promoted its state model for a post-Mubarak Egypt.
Moreover, while the AKP is widely seen as a "mildly Islamist" (The Economist) party, its leadership itself has compared it to Germany's CDU - a conservative party with religious roots, but true to secular standards. This could also be a recipe for the Muslim Brotherhood's inclusion into Egypt's political landscape and, perhaps, into a future government.

I have sometimes heard critics, both of the AKP and the Muslim Brotherhood, point out that these groups are just practising "taqiyya", i.e. a covering-up of their true intentionsto achieve their goals - the Islamisation of society. Historically speaking, of course, taqiyya has been denounced by major Sunni clerics and could only be practised if one's own life is under threat for openly adhering to Islam. Accusing someone of having an "ulterior motive" and, -- no matter how secular and inclusive his actions , they will only count as evidence towards the existence of ulterior motives -- will only excarcerbate societal conflict lines.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 18, 2011

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Mr. Lewicki,

I don´t think it is necessary to look at the Taqqiya-concept - it is a theory that has logical flaws and relative interpretations; Islamists usually see their cause as a struggle against the enemies of Islam (Christian-dominated West e.g. and many others) and as we (crusaders, imperialists, capitalists) are dominating in world policy against the cause of truth, Muslims are under threat of the implications of this dominance. It is no question at all that this applies in theory to all Islamist causes. But it is a completely different question how this in managed in practice. Islamic banking has very less to do with Islamic economics in theory for instance.

We don´t need to look at this theory to see in practice the following in Turkey: a massive impact in the free press and secular institutions along with massive Islam- favoring cultural conservative movement. enforced by the government. This affects the Turkish foreign policy agenda. Hamas, Iran and Sudan were on the radar for compliance and cuts with Israel were tied.

http://propagandistmag.com/2011/02/17/no-free-press-turkish-model

It makes no sense to bring this on topic again, if you read my article where a lot of arguments were shared. I can also bring up hundreds of more examples for my interpretation (Ergenekon, Operation Sledgehammer, harassment of critical journalists), the harassed journalists can cry out as loud as they can (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/elcin-poyrazlar/we-are-being-silenced...), the positions in the debate which rejected my assessment won´t change.

 
John  Hadjisky

February 19, 2011

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@Marcel Lewicki:

"Historically speaking, of course, taqiyya has been denounced by major Sunni clerics..."

Your evidence? Check carefully: Have you considered that these Sunnis might consider the Shiites to be takfiris (apostates), and therefore, the Shiite use of taqiyya can be safely denounced, without weakening the doctrine of taqiyya itself?

From http://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war

Conversely, Sunni Muslims, far from suffering persecution have, whenever capability allowed, waged jihad against the realm of unbelief; and it is here that they have deployed taqiyya—not as dissimulation but as active deceit. In fact, deceit, which is doctrinally grounded in Islam, is often depicted as being equal—sometimes superior—to other universal military virtues, such as courage, fortitude, or self-sacrifice.

As Raymond Ibrahim's controversial but well-written, detailed, and well-sourced article documents, Sunnis are quite comfortable using taqiyya against anyone they consider to be an outsider. The main limitation seems to be, you can't use it against one of your own (where 'one of your own' is narrowly defined to exclude other sects).

"...and could only be practised if one's own life is under threat for openly adhering to Islam."

According to Ibrahim, that is a limitation on taqiyya that a Shiite is more likely to accept; or possibly, a Sunni living in the West might accept it.

"Accusing someone of having an "ulterior motive" and, -- no matter how secular and inclusive his actions , they will only count as evidence towards the existence of ulterior motives -- will only excarcerbate societal conflict lines."

Well yes, accusing someone of lying is a delicate matter, and it is too often done lightly, as if the mere fact that someone is a Muslim is somehow proof. But lying itself is equally problematic, and an accusation is reasonable if it is specific and supported by documentation and analysis with full respect for context.

Let's address the root cause: It would help a great deal if Islamists would formally and publicly renounce takiyya, in Arabic (or Turkish, etc.) Instead, in my experience, Islamists prefer to deny that the doctrine exists, change the subject, or issue non-denial denials, all the while denigrating anyone who dares to point out that these problematic verses do in fact exist, and that the practice is widespread.

Meanwhile, people routinely accuse various countries, particularly the US, of lying. Why should Turkey or other Muslim countries be exempt from this skepticism?

Indeed, I suppose everyone lies at some point in their lives. But, few claim religious justification, and even fewer find this claim validated by certain religious authorities.

Personally, I haven't made up my mind about the AKP. Sometimes it seems like they actually want to keep Ataturk's core legacy, but place it in the civilian sphere rather than the military sphere. That sounds like a good step. On the other hand, sometimes it seems like they want to discard that legacy entirely...
Tags: | Takfirism | taqiyya |
 

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