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January 31, 2011 |  41 comments |  Print | E-Mail Your Opinion  

Don't be Afraid of Egypt's Muslim Brothers

Gillian Kennedy: The West’s political leaders must not be afraid to engage with the Muslim Brotherhood. They are not seeking an Iranian style theocracy, but rather a democratic system with conservative Islamic norms. The younger generation of Muslim Brothers is even open to dialogue with Israel. In no other country is there an Islamist movement so experienced with working with a coalition of broad based groups.

As the eyes of the world's media set it's sights on Egypt, analysts, commentators and journalists are asking the questions that all the political leaders throughout are world are wondering but not saying. What now for Egypt? Who will take over when the eventual demise of Hosni Mubarak's regime comes to an end? And it is eventual, that much we do know. Mubarak's regime has been an empty shell state for sometime now. Parts of the country have been left without state health care, social provisions and educational facilities for years now. Other political players have filled this vacuum, providing the services of the state and highlighting Mubarak's legitimacy deficit to a populace open to anti-regime opinions.

The protesters in large areas of Cairo, Alexandria and Suez shout slogans reflecting this state failure, "Bread, dignity and freedom." Egypt is a country with 62% of its population under 29 years of age, with economic growth at a steady rate of 7%, but with seismic gaps between a large poverty class and a wealthy technocrat class aligned with Mubarak. It is a country with a police state under Emergency law for 30 years, a total lack of transparent fair elections during the life time of much of its people. It is a country where young people attend bloated, dated universities only to be incapable of getting a job with their qualifications. It is a country where European and American tourists flock to, while their own political leaders turn a blind eye to Mubarak's authoritarian rule where political dissent equals arrests, torture and violent repressive measures.

With such a long list of grievances whoever takes over from Mubarak has a difficult task, but who are the contenders? Firstly there is the largest opposition group in parliament, the Muslim Brotherhood. Though in parliament they stand as independents because they have been banned as a political group since 1957. They have joined a coalition of broad based groups in the protests against the regime in the last few days, but it important to note that they are not leading the protests.

Young people disenfranchised from the political system are fronting the protests. They are Muslims, Coptic Christians, secularists, Marxists and ordinary Egyptians from across the social divide. This is not an Islamic revolution by any means, and this is vital for the West's political leaders to understand because they must not be afraid to engage with political Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood who are part of the protests.

The Muslim Brotherhood are internally fragmented. The older generation of Brotherhood leaders, who have suffered in prisons under previous presidents, Gamal Nasser and Anwar Sadat are conservative. They are not seeking an Iranian style theocracy, or Imanship, rather what they seek is a conservative representation of Islamic principles in the government. They want a democratic political system but with conservative Islamic social and moral norms. Then there is the younger generation of Brothers. They also seek Islamic principles in the way Egypt should be ruled, but are more open to compromise then their conservative brothers. This is a crucial difference and is important in a number of areas should the Muslim Brotherhood play a role in the post Mubarak government. For instance, policy areas such as foreign relations with Israel are significant when considering the internal make up of the Muslim Brotherhood. The younger generation of Muslim Brothers are open to dialogue with the Israelis. They may be pro Palestinian in their rhetoric but in reality the younger generation have grown up under the constraints of Mubarak's regime and so understand the value of pragmatic strategy if they want to gain power in Egypt and maintain good relations with their wealthy foreign friends.

The post Mubarak Egypt need not be something that the West must fear. There is no denying that the Egyptian uprising will be a pivotal event in the historical shift of political power in the region; but it should be looked on as an opportunity. In no other country is there an Islamist movement so experienced with working with a coalition of broad based groups. The Muslim Brotherhood have had to transform itself because of they have been outside the political process for so long. Their lack of participation has forced them to come to terms with the secularists and Coptic Christians in order to contest against with Mubarak's regime. There will be struggles over many issues, women's rights, secular versus Islamic education, diplomatic relations with the West and with Israel to name but a few. These are all going to be difficult issues of political compromise, but these are also similar to social and moral difficulties that Christian political parties had to deal with across Europe over the previous century, as they came to terms with a multifaceted political system.

So when we answer the question of what now for Egypt the answer is there will tricky times a head for this broad based opposition. They have been united by their visceral hatred of the corrupt and authoritarian regime of Hosni Mubarak. When the cold light of day shines on the streets of Cairo, the many political differences between the coalition of protesters shall come to the surface. But compromises will be made, policy sacrifices will be martyred and Egyptians will get used to plodding along the slow and challenging road of the democratic process.

Gillian Kennedy is a PhD candidate in Middle Eastern Studies at King's College London. Her PhD examines coercive and consensual counter-hegemonic strategies within the Egyptian Islamist movement from the Nasserite period up until the demise of Islamist terrorist activities in 1997.

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Niklas  Anzinger

January 31, 2011

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"Remember the Iranian revolution when all sorts of people poured out into the streets to demand freedom? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is now president.

Remember the Beirut spring when people poured out into the streets to demand freedom? Hizballah is now running Lebanon.

Remember the democracy among the Palestinians and free elections? Hamas is now running the Gaza Strip.

Remember democracy in Algeria? Tens of thousands of people were killed in the ensuing civil war.

It doesn't have to be that way but the precedents are pretty daunting."

(Barry Rubin)

Yet a lot of arguments should be raised that it won´t be that a disaster this time.

Even Mohammed el-Baradei stated his desire to form a unity political leadership with the Muslim Brotherhood. His stance is the following: “Israel is the number one threat to the Middle East,” and has expressed strong support for the Palestinian “resistance,” particularly in Hamas-controlled Gaza (which he calls “the world’s largest prison”), because, in his opinion, “the Israeli occupation only understands the language of violence.”

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/258397/what-could-be-worse-elb...

What is your argument that the rest of the Muslim Brotherhood is "more pragmatic" or willing to meet chances with the Israelis? You did not cite any indications for that statement - I would be excited to know the indications that support this argument.

The people in Egypt have recently shown in polls a great amount of hostility towards Israel and favor of Islamist rulership.

"If Islamists rule, they corrupt even the most liberal of Muslim societies." (Soner Cagaptay)

In addition they have often shown a great performance in fooling the West - not to stress the Iran-argument, but it works quite well as some see indications against the evidently virulent antisemitism in the Muslim Brotherhood (in fact the theory combining political Islam with antisemitism goes back to the MB, and also the modern theory of global jihad).

Do we have kind of a AKP-like political moment in Egypt represented in the Muslim Brotherhood? Even if this was the case, Islamist democracy means implementing Islamist goals democratically, such as in propaganda against Israel and the West. Turkey will lead this example in the future.

Don´t get me wrong, I would like to see the indications that Egypt could become a reliable democracy, yet the arguments are not very strong from my perspective. It is accurate to say that we have not seen American flags burning - but that does not counter the Iran-argument.

I am more optimistic on the Tunesian moment, where there are indeed a lot of indications for a democratic change without Islamist bypasses.
 
Basia A Bubel

February 1, 2011

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Ms. Kennedy- I want to make the point that any political party or group that seeks to rule under religious principles as you mentioned the Muslim Brotherhood would, is very dangerous and therefore should be a concern not only for the citizens of Egypt but also for the West.
 
Joerg  Wolf

February 1, 2011

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@ ALL

Thank you for the fascinating article and comments. I am curious how you interpret this poll from last summer:

Asked whether there is a struggle in their nations between those who want to modernize their country and Islamic fundamentalists, a 61%-majority of Muslims in Egypt said they did not see a struggle. Just 31% of Egyptian Muslims saw a struggle between modernizers and fundamentialists in their country. Among the seven Muslim publics surveyed in 2010, only in Jordan (20%) did fewer say they saw such a struggle.
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1874/egypt-protests-democracy-islam-inf...



 
Alexander Josef Pilic

February 1, 2011

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Unfortunately, democracy in muslim countries is not really a success-story in general. They are some examples of countries who were able to establish some kind of Western-style democracy like Turkey, Lebanon, Indonesia or recently - following the American invasion - Iraq and to some degree Afghanistan. In spite of their democratic institutions, islamic groups/sects and/or religious laws have still a massive influence on those countries' societies.

Therefore it is only logical to observe the current "democratic" movement in Egypt cautiously, although I would be excited to see democratic reforms and lawful participation of groups like the Muslim Brotherhood.

Concerning the poll that Joerg Wolf referred to in his comment, if you check the website the same poll portrays a rather worrisome picture of Egyptians and their views on democracy:
Only 59 % of Egyptians consider democracy as preferable to any other form of government, compared to 81% of Lebanese.
85% of Egyptians say that Islam's influence on politics is positive, compared to 38% of Turks.
Finally 41% of Egyptians are concerned about Islamic extremism in their country, the highest percentage of all countries polled.

Those surveys always give a lot of room to interpretation but I think the numbers show that Egypt is definetly not immune to the dangers posed by Muslim Extremists.
Tags: | Egypt | Muslim Brotherhood |
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 1, 2011

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Dear Joerg,

these statistics are under the category of "nice to know". They should be considered but a percentage of 59% supporting democracy in Egypt (which is not much according to the other Muslim states) can´t stand for itself as an argument. The question is also, what do the people mean and expect of democracy? The Role of Islam in politics seen positive by 85 % (2% negative) indicates and explanation for your question. One should not overrate this tendency and argue, that this means only Islamic values but not Islamic statehood - but this would also be a misinterpretation. The explanatory power of statistics depend highly on the framework.

Three years ago 64% of Egyptians claimed Sharia should be the only source of legislation (http://www.gallup.com/poll/108724/iranians-egyptians-turks-contrast...).

Though, I will keep an open eye to optimistic indications, I would like to stress the possibility of a Muslim Brotherhood influenced democracy. This is highly expectable, if Mubarak´s regime does not preserve and even not in that case they will gain influence. Even if the outcome of this combination could look moderate in the short term - they would be dependent on US support - the core of the Muslim Brotherhoods doctrine is extremist. It promotes jihad and antisemitism.
 
Unregistered User

February 2, 2011

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Thanks for all the comments on my article. A number of points to make in response to some of the comments. The fear of an extremist theocratic government in Egypt I feel is misplaced for a number of reasons. Unlike Iran, Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood have been a part of a opposition politics for many years in Egypt. The MB have for over 30 years now consistently pledged themselves to non-violence. There have been violent jihadist groups such as Al Jihad and al-Takfir wa al-Hijra that have been offshoots of the MB in Egypt, but the membership and the leadership over the past 30-40 has condemned them for every act of violence that they have perpetuated. Whether these were acts of violence against state officials or tourists, the MB leadership have never supported these methods.

The MB mention jihad in their ideological doctrinal outpourings, for instance former General Guide, Hasan al Hudaybi spoke about jihad in greatdetail in his book, 'Preachers not Judges'. In it he explicitly made clear that the MB see jihad as an internal struggle to find Islam, not as a violent attacking ideological concept that seeks to overthrow Israel.
I am not saying that the MB are going to be on friendly terms with Israel or even the West; however what I am concluding from examining the previous 30 years of MB policies is that they are willing to take part in the democratic process and to form alliances with other secular or leftist parties in order to form a coalition of governance in Egypt.

As for the statistics, well I think the above quote is correct in stating, 'The explanatory power of statistics depend highly on the framework.' Polls can be used to manipulate circumscribed answers, however actual acts such as internal MB elections, participation in national elections,and party political alliances with other political players indicate the real possibility of an Islamist party playing a part in a democratic government. As I said in my article, I believe that the post Mubarak era will give an opportunity to the MB to prove their democratic credentials. The current events in Egypt reflect this - the MB leadership are supporting El Badarei, they have not taken over the protests, nor has there been any anti semitic element in the protests. They have consistently called for free and fair elections with the views of all Egyptians represented.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 2, 2011

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Thanks for your argument, let me state a few points:

1) The Muslim Brotherhood was oppressed by force - torture, execution and exclusion of the political process. Thus, there are more a grassroots network engaging in mosques, social facilities, education system and universities.

2) The Muslim Brotherhood doctrine is as extremist as Islamist ideology can be - it is the developing force of Islamist antisemitism and global jihad. Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Muhammad Badi declared jihad against America - http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4650.htm

3) The MB stance is to establish Islamic sharia law - the Khomeneist component of a representative of the almighty as Supreme leader is missing, their ideology contains more of a cleric Supreme administration in politics. But is also contains violent struggle to expand Islamic law.

4) As matter of fact, the MB is the only relevant political opposition - democratic and secular forces have no organization or politcal participation whatsoever.

This has all nothing to do with Western democracy - the mere concept of political participation is combinable with Islamist doctrins. But tolerance, human rights and political pluralism are not. Don´t let yourself be fooled, the MB have a lot of experience from other countries.

Compared to Iran, there was not even an apparent political established Islamist movement. Their moment was a mosque-grounded grassroots network, a charismatic leader and the Iranian Left´s and Western intellectuals´ stupidity. As you see, non-violence of the Islamists is not an indictor at all - their spoken agenda is - that is the experience in every Muslim country.

The MB in Egypt has not even an opposition - it is affiliated with terrorist networks around the world, has a long political experience and an ideology that does not adapt democratic values as we know it - it has never happened and will not happen.

As you can see here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg6QTL8QjU4&feature=player_embedded - they know very well to play the political game. They see Mohammed el Baradei as a "puppet".
 
Burak  Kocaaslan

February 2, 2011

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I think no one should underestimate the practical reason for the Muslim Brotherhood to condemn terror as a useful tool to gain some kind of influence. Similar to the Turkish AKP, and especially Erdogan who separated himself from his 'foster-father' Necmettin Erbakan, before establishing the AKP in 2001, the MB sees terror impractical.

Now the problem is, this is only side of the coin.

I would like to agree with you on this one Gillian, but secptisim towards what they are and not what they could be results in the fact, that a political system without a great influence of the MB is a better alternative.

 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 2, 2011

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I agree with Mr. Kocaaslan - I would also like to see a democratic and pluralist Egypt as a fulfillment of the unalienable right to live in freedom of the Egyptian people; I am willing to see all the optimist indications, but I think the optimists arguments are not strong.

Mr. Kocaaslan pointed out what I wanted to say. Terrorism is calculated violence - it has a cost-benefit ratio, not a mere violent lunacy. In the case of the MB, violence would not be rational.
 
Burak  Kocaaslan

February 2, 2011

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After 30 years under a vicious regime of Hosni Mubarak, even a slightly concern about a similar regime is a bad option for the Egyptian people.
 
Anamaria  Tamas

February 2, 2011

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Dear Ms Kennedy,
Although I am a bit skeptical about the degree of consensus of the Muslims Brotherhood and their willingness to engage in constructive dialogue with Israel, I must admit that I believe we must give them a chance. If the West decides right now to support an alternative to Mubarak that continues the same policy of suppression of the Islamists because of Western fear of a more fundamentalist Egypt, then the West will be in turn branded as anti-Islamic by demagogues such as Ahmadinejad. Consequently, this would allow such people to fulminate against the West's double standards when it comes to the foreign policy regarding the Islamic world . It would also give them more legitimacy to tighten their authoritarian grip on the national politics of their own countries by distracting attention to an outside anti-Islamic enemy. So yes, I do think we should not automatically fear an Islamic alternative/opposition to Mubarak, but encourage the choice of the Egyptian people, regardless of what that might be. After all, that's what democracy means.
 
Gillian  Kennedy

February 2, 2011

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Dear Ms Tamas,

I couldn't agree more with your assessment regarding the counter-productivity of the West's policy of supporting another Mubarak. Also I think it is worth noting that considering the assorted make up of the coalition of anti-Mubarak protestors, how can we assume that if Egyptians were given the chance to vote in free and fair elections that they would elect a majority led MB government?
Indeed it would be more likely that the MB would play a role in the new coalition government along with other political parties. For example, the New Wafd party did considerably well in the last election and are willing to work with the MB, as is El Badarei.

The other option is either keeping the Mubarak regime, although without Mubakak but with the same old technocrat cronyistic elite in charge. This would result in more protests, windowdressing reforms and continued disenfranchisement of millions of Egyptians. If Egyptians want to live in a democracy and choose their own government freely, how can the West continue to insist on democracy, but on their terms only?
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 2, 2011

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"how can we assume that if Egyptians were given the chance to vote in free and fair elections that they would elect a majority led MB government?"

All the arguments are in the comments here. You have to encounter them.

"If Egyptians want to live in a democracy and choose their own government freely, how can the West continue to insist on democracy, but on their terms only? "

Because the Western states have interests that contradict with a democratic decision to destroy Israel. Just one example.

I wonder why you consider a realpolitik calculus for the Muslim Brotherhood, but not for the Western states.

What the people want (let´s stay with the extreme example: waging war against Israel) and what the Western states want (peace in the region) could contradict. That is why the West doesn´t want to have what the people want. This is cruel, this is not moral and maybe it is even wrong that this strategy will fit in the long term. It surely was wrong in Tunesia, from my perspective.

You can reasonably argue for an idealistic argument that it gets better with democracy, it leads to rational decisions and so on. But as I see it, there are very few arguments here.

Sadly even an idealist argument has to face reality. Democracy needs democrats and democratical institutions - if these are not given it is a historically evident fact that these democracies get overthrown by something that is mostly worse than before. Consider the 1979 situation.
 
Michael  Schuster

February 2, 2011

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Mr Anzinger,

so you think the Muslim Brotherhood is going to start a war with Israel?

No way. Egyptians are tired of the many wars they had with Israel and definitely are not interested in creating more problems than they have right now. The priorities for any new government are jobs, jobs, jobs.

Even the MB has bigger priorities at the moment.

An Interview with the Brotherhood: "He is a very good man," Hamza said of ElBaradei. "Maybe he is a secular man, but he respects the democratic option and he will leave the people to choose their president and Parliament. And maybe he'll help Egypt recover."
http://www.worldpolicy.org/blog/2011/01/31/interview-brotherhood

 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

February 2, 2011

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Ms Kennedy: thank you for an excellent and interesting article which comes at an opportune moment. I also admire the way you respond to the questions. As you will understand, I am a believer, but for the non-believers perhaps you could disclose a number of your sources. That may help to convince the critics.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 2, 2011

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Mr. Schuster,

I didn´t say that. I took it as an example.

Egypt is central in the region and has a huge influence - it was the most realiable partner for Israel and the US in the Israeli-Palestinian peace settlement.

The Muslim Brotherhood has a radical antisemite ideology and seeks to establish Sharia law - as my explanation above states.

Whatever will come out, there are few arguments that back the claim that it will bring a good result. What is the difference to the situation in Iran? Lebanon? Algeria? West Bank? I don´t won´t to equate all this or rule put the possibility that the Egyptians can establish a pluralist democracy - but they certainly won´t with the Muslim Brotherhood. There are so many historic examples that we have all to be strong scepticists.

There is another thing, I don´t understand. It seems that I have completely changed roles with my opponents in the Iran debate. In the case of Iran, I took a stance for regime change and supporting the opposition. My opponents were the realists who asked "are the Iranians really seeking democracy?" and "is it foreseeable what will come after?" My counterarguments were that it can´t be worse than the Islamic Republic and there is no backing for the Islamist ideology in the Iranian people. This time, my opponents are enthustiastic about regime change in Egypt, supporting the opposition - while I am the realist asking "what wil come after?" and "what about Islamism?"

Isn´t the difference obvious? Me and Mr. Wolf brought a lot of arguments that Islamism is vital and the Muslim Brotherhood, virulent antisemites and Islamists, are the strongest political opposition force. Yet I heard no counterarguments in the debate exerpt for the "non-violence"-argument, which I countered. I am waiting for another arguments for this issue.

And perhaps one could explain to me why hardly anyone considered supporting the Iranians, turning their back on the Iranian revolution, speaking about compliance with the Iranian regime, and now how the situation in Egypt is different?
 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

February 2, 2011

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French journalist and political analyst Thierry Meyssan, just published an interesting article entitled: “Egypt on the brink of a bloodbath”, which you will find at http://www.voltairenet.org/article168319.html. The following quotes will give you the gist of his essay:

“The Egyptian revolt is … aimed against … a government and administration that are so engrossed in serving the interests of foreign powers that they have no energy left to tend to the basic needs of the population.”

“...western media are discovering rather late that the Islamic threat is merely a scarecrow. But it is still necessary to acknowledge that it was activated by the United States under the Clinton administration and by France in Algeria during the 1990’s with François Mitterand at the helm, then blown up by the Bush administration in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, and fueled by the European neo-conservative governments of Blair, Merkel and Sarkozy.”

“… the current situation lays bare the contradictions within the U.S. administration. In his Cairo University speech, Barack Obama had offered to extend a hand to Muslims and had called for democracy. Today, however, he will make every effort to prevent democratic elections in Egypt from taking place.”

“Elections would play out in favour of the Muslim Brotherhood and the Copts, who would form a government that would open the Gaza border and liberate the millions of people who are locked inside. With the support of their neighbours - Lebanon, Syria and Egypt - the Palestinians would overthrow the Zionist yoke.”
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 2, 2011

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"Overthrow the Zionist yoke" is what you would like to see, wouldn´t you?

Thierry Meyssan is a 9/11-conspirationist and voltairenet.org is kind of a think-tank for anti-Zionist conspiracy theories.
 
Gillian  Kennedy

February 3, 2011

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I think there is a danger here in this discussion turning into an essentialist tirade about 'Islamism'. Islamism like many other political ideologies is crosses over a large political spectrum, ranging from conservative right wing Islamists to leftist Islamists. To tarnish all Islamist groups with the same polemical brush is unjust as there are Islamists (al- Wasat in Egypt, younger members of the MB) who believe that Israel as a state can exist, but also believe in the right of Palestinian statehood. Not to mention the socio-political differences between Islamists from different countries.

Mr. Anzinger, you mention realpolitik virtues for the Western states- the reality is that banning Islamist parties from taking part in an open political process has only played into the hands of the more extreme fringes of the Islamist movements. The West's policy of aiding authoritarian regimes is counter productive because it results in more fervent anti-West feeling across the Arab world.

As for this notion that if the MB come into power they will seek to destroy Israel, I think this has missed the point about the MB's support. The MB are a grassroots organisation that has provided health clinics and educational services for Egyptians. The present revolution that we are seeing on the streets of Cairo is about economic and social grievances, not about some anti-Israeli/global jihad crusade. To think that Egyptians would support the MB in this crusade underestimates the intelligence and essential needs of the people.

Lastly, you said that, 'democracy needs democrats and democratical institutions - if these are not given it is a historically evident fact that these democracies get overthrown by something that is mostly worse than before.' What can be worse than a 30 year authoritarian regime that has shown nothing but contempt for its people? It seems to me that in trying to protect the irrational security fears of Israel (based on the fear of the MB playing a role in Egyptian governance), that you would simply ignore the democratic rights of a nation of 85million.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 3, 2011

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Thank you for your strong arguments Ms Kennedy.

First, some points I think you misassess, then some points which seem valid for me:

1) It is no discussion in Islamist environments to accept the state of Israel - if you find evidence for the contrary, I believe, I can quickly show you that these persons were persecuted as collaborateurs or we have the "double speak"-phenomenon at work. Simple as that, breaking with hostility towards Israel means breaking with Islamism - nobody in MB, al-Quaida, Hamas, Hezbollah can make any concessions in the demand of destroying Israel.

You are right about different forms of Islamism and different components. a) social networks b) military wings c) ideological indoctrination and theory is the common notion, but I would add d) acceptance in forms of common beliefs (salafist Islam, anti-Western sentiment, acceptance of integration in the movement as a solution). d) is important because it includes also Western intellectuals as apologets of terrorism for instance. The polls indicate an mindset in Egypt that is very like to support Islamist ideology - http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on... Thus, as the argument was that the MB is Islamist and the most relevant opposition force, we would have to expect Islamist policy as an outcome.

2) Your argument is that of El Baradei:

“Mubarak has convinced the United States and Europe that they only have a choice between two options – either they accept this authoritarian regime, or Egypt will fall into the hands of the likes of bin Laden’s Al Qaeda….Mubarak uses the specter of Islamist terror to prevent a third way: the country’s democratization. But Washington needs to know that the support of a repressive leadership only creates the appearance of stability. In truth, it promotes the radicalization of the people.”

This is a reasonable formulation. But one might also say that nothing would promote the radicalization of the people more than having a new radical regime in power – the Islamist regime that would probably rise in the absence of any other organized opposition.

3) What could be worse? Isn´t it obvious? It is Iran, theocratic leadership there, or Hamas moral terror is by far worse for both the people and Western interests. Why is that irrational of Israel to assume? What is so different about 1979? Mubarak was even not on the Western side by conviction, but out of mere rationality - Sadat was forced to engage in the peace process with Israel. Mubarak has no problems with anti-semite and anti-Western propaganda as long as he preserved his power.

I give you the following point:

1) "The present revolution that we are seeing on the streets of Cairo is about economic and social grievances, not about some anti-Israeli/global jihad crusade. To think that Egyptians would support the MB in this crusade underestimates the intelligence and essential needs of the people."

That is actually the only argument I see prospective power to develop. But I think this argument is not enought against the possibility of an Islamist takeover of the power.

Let´s make the experiment and try what will come out, Mubarak is out the game anyway. Then I would suggest to abandon any political or economic support which could direct the Muslim Brotherhood - instead give it to Israel, they could protect themselves. Instead the West could help bulding democratic institutions that can in the end outplay the MB´s influence. That would be a good answer to the argument of the political relevance of the MB.

But I think this argument is not enought against the possibility of an Islamist takeover of the power.

Anyway, I think our premises could be somewhat irrelevant - I recently read an article of this Egypt scholar which gave me a whole different picture.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 3, 2011

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http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/the_story_of_the_egyptian_revo.html
 
Felix F. Seidler

February 3, 2011

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First of all, there is one pretty remarkable thing in all the protests going on. I have not seen any pictures from Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen or Jordan showing people who burn Israeli or US flags. After I followed Al Jazeera, a number of Facebook pages and blogs for a while, I guess, however, the protesters are not seeking any kind of new dictatorship. Furthermore, after people protested their regime out of office one time, likely, they have learned their lesson. Thus, they are able to do it again. Hence, I would tend to put away the “Islamist mace”.

My point is a different one. Currently, we have a huge number of Westerners - and I am one of them - calling for democracy in Egypt. Assumed, that we will see an ongoing democratization in Egypt, it will be an Islamic one. From there on, lots of those Westerns will argue Egypt´s parties have to adopt all kinds of things which are "in" over here right now. But one has to accept, that issues like women quotas and environmental protection will not be treated over there as within the West. I am concerned that a slowly growing Egyptian democracy may be overextended by Westerner´s demands, like it happened in Afghanistan. Anyway, a new Egyptian parliament will not adapt the German Bundestag´s rules of procedure. Henceforth, we should stay realistic. After the failure of US and European policy Westerns should keep quiet with demands or proposals and, instead, let the Egyptians find their own way.

 
Michael  Schuster

February 3, 2011

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Mr. Anzinger,

I cannot follow your comparisions between Iran and Egypt.

The public in the West was as sympathetic to the Iranians during their protests and shocked by the violence from the regime as they are now sympathetic/shocked re Egypt.

What difference do you see?

I am using the word "sympathetic" instead of "support" (your choice of words) because the "support" is too strong a word. It suggests doing more than giving nice speeches.

Regarding the other points, I recommend:

Egypt and America's 'Islamist dilemma' - latimes.com
The fear of Islamists coming to power has long paralyzed U.S. policy. That shouldn't guide our approach to Egypt.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-hamid-egypt-20...

 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 3, 2011

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Mr. Schuster,

my comparison between Iran and Egypt is based on personal experiences. I feel the media echo is much more in favour of regime change than in Iran.

The people who never lost a word about the authocratic Arab regimes suddenly know all quite well how to deal with the Egypt revolution and marginalize key points (Muslim Brotherhood, Islamist and anti-Western sentiments) while overestimating the revolutionary moment (see article above).

My conclusion from Iran was that the Western powers and the media were sceptical about the possiblity of regime change - the Western powers were very cautious in their statements and the US administration was more in favor of the Iranian regime.

The arguments were:

"Regime change could lead to instability."

"We can´t be sure of the democratic and anti-regime character of the demonstrations."

"We can´t be sure of a non-Islamist outcome."

Now, in Egypt, I take these exact stances, and I believe I have arguments we had not in Iran.

"Regime change could lead to instability" - The Iranian regime is the core factor of instability in the region.

Contrary: The Egypt regime was a main stabilizer of the Israeli-Palestinian peace settlement (Gaza non-proliferation, military cooperation, holding down the Muslim Brotherhood) - though they may not have been a very good partner and finally the stability of the regime was not given.

"We can´t be sure of the democratic and anti-regime character of the demonstrations." - The demonstrators explicitly named the abolition of the Islamic Republic and their demand of freedom constantly.

Contrary: There were indeed anti-Israeli sentiments presenting Mubarak as a Zionist agent. The Muslim Brotherhood declaring jihad on America and calling for war against Israel (you can see all this on MEMRI TV).

"We can´t be sure of a non-Islamist outcome." - Only 8% support the accuracy of Sharia law.

Contrary: The polls in Egypt show less favour of democracy and modernization than in most of the other Arab states while strong pro-Sharia (62%) and Islamic statehood (all the sources here in the comments). The MB is the main political opposition, there are no democratic political forces - they have all been marginalized.

Conclusively, don´t get me wrong, I don´t want to marginalize the Egypt people´s courage - but I´m sceptical about the potential given the organized actors of power in the army and radical forces.

Nobody in my environmet and in the AC here was very convinced that we should support the Iranian freedom movement; while now I see favor of El Baradei, forming a unity coalition with the MB, Obama urging Mubarak to resign.

The case of the Israelis has been the very same; they are sceptical about Egypt for the very same reasons, while they tried to promote support for the opposition in Iran. In both cases all the people I discussed with stated that the Isrealis are somehow paranoid. Is it that difficult to understand? In Iran they had to lose their major enemy and in Egypt they had to lose their most reliable partner in the region.

Yet, I agree that the revolution in Egypt was not about Israel - but that doesn´t change the fact that there is hardly any argument that doesn´t lack reality completely that there will be an outcome in favor of keeping peace with Israel.

Yet, of course I see contradictions and no serious analyst can predict the further developments - but these careless attitude and marginalization of the 1979 moments that are similar seem very curious to me.

Please note the article by the Egyptian scholar - it may be the case that Al-Jazeera is exaggerating the revolutionary moment.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 3, 2011

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Clarification:

"Nobody in my environmet and in the AC here was very convinced that we should support the Iranian freedom movement"

That is not true, but there were very few who favored regime change - although the people demanded it.

And to make it clear:

I support the brave Egyptian people uprising and note news that they are against an MB participation; it could very well be that they are struggling against their influence and my scepticism shall not be an impediment ti sympathize with these people´s struggle.

But to make sure: MB participation of the future Egypt state is the worst possible thing that can happen.
 
Burak  Kocaaslan

February 4, 2011

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"I have not seen any pictures from Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen or Jordan showing people who burn Israeli or US flags."

Burned flags are not a necessity, a simple sign like this bears the same symbolical statement:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/files/fp_uploaded_images/110201_10_108...

My point is not to overestimate these symbols, but on the other hand not to underestimate them too.
 
John  Hadjisky

February 4, 2011

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Whether we are afraid of the Muslim Brotherhood or not, the real question is, why should we prefer them.

In their statements and actions, they've made clear their position regarding Democracy and Rule of Law:

One person, One vote, One time

After that one election, they become just another dictator. Worse, in a way, because they tend towards totalitarian theocracy, rather than mere dictatorship.
 
John  Hadjisky

February 4, 2011

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@Joerg:

"Asked whether there is a struggle in their nations between those who want to modernize their country and Islamic fundamentalists, a 61%-majority of Muslims in Egypt said they did not see a struggle. Just 31% of Egyptian Muslims saw a struggle between modernizers and fundamentialists in their country"

One interpretation may be, of the large, monotheist religions, Islam is the newest. Therefore some of those 61% of Egyptians may consider that there is no conflict (Islam=the only legitimate form of modernity). Under this view, what Westerners define as modernity, Islamists define as not something new, but rather, as the oldest form of sin (materialism, which has existed at least as long, in their minds, as the world's oldest profession). This would be consistent with the traditionalist, conservative strain of Islam.

Another interpretation, perhaps more compatible with the Muslim Brotherhood's views, might be that Islam is timeless, and is already compatible with modernity, so there is no issue.

Yet another interpretation is from what one might call an Islamist reform movement. A typical position of these 'reformers' might be that Jihad used to mean armed struggle, but in modern times Jihad means the internal struggle for self-improvement. I have met a number optimistic, excited (and perhaps naive) young Muslims who believe this and really, really, really want me to believe this. These reformers would acknowledge that Islam needs (needed?) to change, but that change has now been accomplished and therefore they would tell the pollsters there is no conflict (no longer any conflict?) between Islam and modernity. My sense is that the Muslim Brotherhood would tolerate these reformers only as long as they are useful.

Finally, some Egyptians may remember the (relatively?) cosmopolitan Egypt of the '70's, full of promise. But I suspect they would not poll in the 61%.
Tags: | Egypt | poll | islamism | Islam |
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 4, 2011

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Yet I am very concerned that the US administration considers to involve the Muslim Brotherhood in a prospective democratic process.

Where are the arguments that it will be different than in Gaza, Lebanon or Algeria?

The MB declared jihad against the US, they see democracy as a form for establishing their power and called on the Egyptians to prepare for war against Israel.

"Opinion polls over the past decade have awarded the Brotherhood the support of between 30% and 60% of the populace, and it is the best organised and most powerful political party in the country." (Benny Morris)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/03/egypt-muslim-br...

"If the White House is to avoid an Iran-like tragedy, it must stay one step ahead of the Brotherhood, refuse to be a populist foil and guarantee the September elections, and bestow legitimacy only upon those groups that eschew violence and abide by the Egyptian constitution." (Michael Rubin)

http://www.aei.org/article/103099

I think, this is the right way to go as the author suggests. What other choice do we have?

But all kinds of considerations have to keep in mind that democracy is only possible against the MB, not with the MB.
 
John  Hadjisky

February 5, 2011

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There has been speculation here about whether the Muslim Brotherhood wants war with Israel, and whether the Egyptian people would be willing to support that.

The MB's aims are clear, when you stop listening to their statements in English, their unfaithful translations from Arabic, or their apologists in the academe, and instead read what they have to say in Arabic (which I cannot) or in a reliable translation (I consider MEMRI to be reliable but am interested in other sources and what people here think about MEMRI).

That said, MB are capable of being patient, and the Egyptian people would not want a full-scale, conventional war with Israel, which they would probably lose anyhow.

The notion that the younger Brothers in the MB might be open to living with Israel is unproven -- as they age and rise through the ranks, they may well discover there is a sort of glass ceiling and to get past it they have to learn the 'secret handshake': No recognition of Israel, ever.

Hamas used to be controlled by the Egyptian government in the 70's and 80's. After the peace treaty, Egypt never normalized relations with Israel, but did become less interested in supporting Hamas; meanwhile the MB never gave up that cause (as they will remind any Palestinian who suggests they've sold out!) but had little to offer Hamas. So, Hamas found support from diverse sources and became more like an independent NGO (the bad kind, like al-Qaeda) and less like a state-sponsored proxy.

MB's smartest strategy would not be direct war but rather proxy war. If the MB entered into power in Egypt, alone or in a coalition government, its goal would likely be to re-establish Egyptian control of Hamas. Then, it would utilize Hamas to induce Israel to make additional incursions into Gaza. Possibly (in the fervent hope of the MB) Israel might re-occupy Gaza or make incursions into Egypt.

Proxy war would allow MB to moot the peace treaty, while avoiding a full-scale Egypt-Israel war which neither the MB nor Israel want (for completely different reasons) This would be a huge diplomatic victory for the MB, and greatly increase their credibility with Palestinians and Islamists worldwide. It would validate the MB's approach to Jihad: patient 'lawfare' plus low-level violence. Given the amount of media influence the MB already enjoy, they could portray their proxy war (a war which, from Hamas' point of view, has never really stopped) as an act of Israeli aggression, rather than an act of self-defense against aggression from Hamas.

The war by proxy strategy has an advantage in that, unlike full-scale war, it would not require MB to control a majority of parliament or the bureaucracy; it would be enough for them to control just enough bureaus and budget resources to support the proxy. Even in as a minority partner, MB could quite plausibly demand these resources and posts as a condition of entering a coalition; indeed, the MB might even see substantial, US and EU support for this arrangement (behind the scenes, of course). A US and/or EU brokered coalition would play well with domestic (US/EU) audiences.

We see hints of this goal, and the propaganda spin needed to support it, in the quotes from Thierry Meyssan (hat tip: Paul-Robert Lookman). "...the Palestinians would overthrow the Zionist yoke..." need not be taken literally, at least at first. For now, it would be enough to further isolate Israel internationally. The MB are patient, and they have a long-term goal.

OK what I've just written is speculation...but where exactly have I gone wrong?
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 5, 2011

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Your speculation is built on just one premise:

1) There will be a less stabile control regime of Hamas, arm suppliance and terrorist mobility.

That is the least to assume and perfectly reasonable. Your prediction is very accurate from my perspective, yet it is even the least we have to expect.

Also I´m with you regarding the statements of the MB on MEMRI.

Though, you seem to be very cautious on an assessment of the MB´s goals. There is of less solid premises to predict their actions. Yet the premise that their spoken agenda (jihad against America, war against Israel - these are all statements by eminent figures) may correspond with their actions should be very strong for one who has experience with their history and ideology.

But even with the minimal expectancy, our policy makers should draw the conclusions to insist on keeping the peace treaty and the control regime of the Gaza strip - they will have to take the challenge to build up forces against the MB in Egypt - and in any case, focus on the security of Israel as they are faced with one more genocidal enemy (Hezbollah in Lebanon) and potentially hostile ambitions from the MB in Egypt.
 
John  Hadjisky

February 5, 2011

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@Niklas Anzinger:

Thanks for writing, I assume your comments are mostly in response to my comment?

"...yet it is even the least we have to expect."

By this you mean, things could be much worse than what I suggested?

Yes, but I feel the worse case scenarios have already been fully discussed here and elsewhere. So, I wanted to focus on what I consider to be a more likely scenario, without fully dismissing the worse case possibilities.

Another thought occurs to me: Iran, and its proxies, would also consider it a victory if they gained control of Hamas (similar to the control they have over Hezbollah). This sets up a rivalry between Iran and whatever new government emerges in Egypt. These two nations could end up in a stalemate, with either one really controlling Hamas; in this case, Hamas would continue to operate as a sort of independent NGO, which would resemble the status quo ante the Tunisia/Egypt uprising. The new Egypt might even be willing to help Israel enforce the blockade against Hamas, if it meant preventing Iran from gaining control over Hamas, and ensuring that Hamas pays a price for spurning the Egyptian overture. Hmm...
 
John  Hadjisky

February 5, 2011

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Correction. I wrote:

"...with either one really controlling Hamas"

I meant to write:

"...with neither one really controlling Hamas"
 
Marco  Funk

February 5, 2011

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After reading these comments, I believe that this discussion is losing touch with the reality on the ground in Egypt right now. What we are seeing there is a broadly-based popular movement against the Mubarak regime, not a revolution led by the Muslim Brotherhood - and not a specifically an anti-western or anti-Israeli uprising either. This is about removing an oppressive regime that stifled political freedom and failed to develop Egypt's economy. Most people protesting don't want an Islamic Republic of Egypt, they simply want to elect their leaders, they want a decent job and enough food to put on the table. Of course there are some who want to use this moment to express Islamist views and maybe even want to create a theocracy, but this is a small minority that doesn't have much popular support.

The Muslim Brotherhood is getting a lot of attention because of its historic role as the strongest political opposition in Egypt, but it must be pointed out that it is not a monolithic group that shares the exact same views. Rather, it is a collection of different factions. The majority of the Muslim Brotherhood is anti-western because of the West's continued support of the Mubarak regime, which is viewed as both oppressive and incompetent in providing ordinary Egyptians' basic needs such as jobs, healthcare and education. Religion plays a secondary role here, just as I believe it does for much of Hezbollah in Lebanon. Yes, a radical, religiously-motivated wing of the Muslim Brotherhood does exist, but it is by far not as influential as some people commenting on here suggest.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 6, 2011

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Mr Funk,

yet you state your assumptions withour reasoning and without referring to the reasoning given in the comments here.

I would like to believe you are right, but where is the argument and the reasoning?

Are all these indications (MB statements, polls, terrorist activities) given here not of relevancy in your view? You stated that these are just "losing touch with reality". What is your argument?

I believe it is wishful thinking.
 
John  Hadjisky

February 6, 2011

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@Marco Funk:

You wrote: "What we are seeing there is a broadly-based popular movement against the Mubarak regime"

Well yes, the Egypt uprising certainly started out that way. There were indications that the Muslim Brotherhood was nearly as surprised and unprepared as the Mubarak regime itself.

But the situation is changing rapidly. The MB is now in the streets and clearly trying to assert control of the anti-regime movement. I still don't know if the MB will win complete control (my guess is, not), but I remain very concerned about the trouble the MB could cause as part of a coalition government.

When the Egyptian Internet and Telco's went off-line, it may have (inadvertantly?) helped the MB, whose network of mosques could presumably take over communications, logistics, etc?

All this assumes the Mubarak regime will fall, which still isn't 100% certain...lately they seem to be rallying a bit...the images of allegedly pro-Mubarak forces on horseback and camel-back are fascinating...possibly meant to project a certain air of...authenticity? continuity of history? nostalgia?
 
Marco  Funk

February 7, 2011

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Mr. Anzinger,

My reasoning is clearly stated in my post. My argument is that what's happening in Egypt is not about Israel, which is the direction you are taking this discussion (and which you like to take practically all discussions on this website relating to the Middle East I have noticed).

Anyway, I suggest you read the following article:

http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/uprising-dents...

Mr. Hadjisky,

I certainly agree that the situation is serious and by no means safe from a possible MB takeover, I simply believe that the conditions in Egypt are not particularly favorable to them at this time for the reasons I described in my post.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 7, 2011

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Mr Funk,

it is not a very convincing argument from my perspective, because neither were the protests in Iran 1979, yet they had a very bad outcome. Additionally it is completely wrong that I suggested the direction that the protests are about Israel - instead I said from an Israeli perspective one should be very concerned about the outcome of the revolution. I don´t need this for my argument; it would be naive to indentify the content of the revolution with the prospective outcome. I don´t want to reject the possbility of a good outcome, but the public marginalization of the Muslim Brotherhood is ridiculous - hey, we can´t see them, they have no influence and no backing. That is very naive to assume looking at the history and the ideology of the MB. Yet, there are massive actions by the MB and growing compliance with the protestors. There is indeed footage of Mubarak presented at a Zionist agent and hostility towards the US and Israel.

In addition we made our argument pretty strong that involvement of the MB is a very bad idea, which you don´t refer to. The likelyhood of a positive outcome of the revolution depends on whether the people recognize they have to turn against the MB and are capable of doing so, or not - simply spoken. Did you note the polls posted in this thread? The Egyptians were indeed extremely favorable of MB, how could this change all of a sudden?
 
Paul-Robert  Lookman

February 7, 2011

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Before this excellent article from a knowledgeable author on the subject disappears from the front page, just to say it is sad to see how the discussion degenerated. With quite a few comments utterly beside the point, the author puts these in three reactions in perspective, essentially arguing that the fear of an extremist theocratic government in Egypt is misplaced, and that the MB - on friendly terms with Israel and the West or not - will be ready to participate in the democratic process. The author explains that the unfolding events in Egypt are about economic and social grievances, not about some anti-Israeli/global jihad crusade.

Yet the tirade about 'Islamism' could continue unhindered. There are distinct similarities with the debates on NATO and Iran, where fundamentalists hijacked the discussion. I am of course in favour of the principle of free expression of thought, but feel that in this particular case the editor could have applied a mild form of moderation. After all, he did so in quite a few previous debates. In my view, the fact that an opinion, or rather a fear, could be repeated into the absurd, raises questions about the quality of this open think tank. I, for one, am rapidly losing my gusto to provide articles to this platform, but will definitely continue to contribute to the debates, thereby ignoring the prolific fundamentalists.
 
Marcel  Lewicki

February 8, 2011

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I'd like to bring the discussion back on track and really talk about Gillian's every interesting and timely article. On the front page of yesterday's "Süddeutsche Zeitung" was a picture of protestors holding up an Egyptian flag, a Coptic cross and a Qur'an. Of course this smacks a little of revolutionary romanticisim, but it does remind us of one thing: beside the recent horrible December bombings against a Coptic church and anti-Christian propaganda a the largest part of the Egyptian populace - Christians and Muslims - lives together peacefully, just like they do in Syria, Iran and Turkey. Of course the status of minority rights in these countries can, and should be, criticised, but it should to be forget that there is a long tradition of tolerance. And now, as the author points out, Copts and Muslims, secularists and religious people set their differences aside and protest (for the most part) peacefully and side by side.

What does this mean for the Muslim Brotherhood? Of course, no one can know their "real intentions", but right now, they can hardly be criticised for not behaving like good democrats. In the last couple of weeks, their leaders have said they accepted a consensus on women's rights, just like the Ennadha did in Tunisia.

Many commentators have tried to raise (or even construct) parallels between Egypt 2011 and Iran 1979. But, as Gillian pointed out, there are huge differences between the Muslim Brotherhood and the followers of Khomeini. F
irst of all, the Brothers are Sunni, the overwhelming majority of Iranians are Shi'a. In Sunni Islam, the de jure "profane" power of the clergy ended when Kemal Atatürk abolished the Caliphate in 1924. Whereas the Caliphate was the institution that stabilised the conquered lands in the first three centuries of Islam, by the early 20th century with the rise of the nationalist Young Turks it was an atavism without real politicial importance.

In Shi'a Islam, the situation is completely different. In Shi'a eschatology, the existence of a reedemer, a "Guided One" - the Mahdi - is a central religious idea. Khomeini used this idea and built a system of Islamic government around it - the "velayat-e faqih", or Guardianship of the Jurist. He claimed that only if an Islamic state existed could the Mahdi return. Many Shi'a identify the Mahdi with the Twelfth - and Last - Imam and followers of Khomeini often called him "the Imam", believing him to be the one who will bring about the end of days.

Besides being important religious symbolism, this shows that Khomeini had a closed and complete world view, a state ideology that developed into a very strong corset between the actual revolution and the end of the Iran-Iraq War; a state ideology that, to my knowledge, is completely lacking in the Muslim Brotherhood - in part because of a different political outlook, but also because of very different religious perspectives.

By the end of the war, Khomeini had elimited in a very brutal, realpolitik manner, all his internal enemies and had completely taken over the Islamic Republic. Why had he been able to do that? The Iranian Revolution - for it was an "Iranian" Revolution before it was an "Islamic" Revolution - was precipitated by hatred against a corrupt and very brutal regime that had not only been propped up by the West, but had also been welcomed into the cultural circles of the West. The hated Shah was thus the representative of an ancient civilization, a fact that angered many Iranians that were Iranians first and Muslims later.
For the West, however, it wasn't enough to support the Shah; it turned to supporting - sometimes clandestinely, sometimes openly - Saddam Hussein in a very brutal war against Iran, a war in which Sadddam Hussein used poison gas manufactured in part because of German engineering against thousands of Iranian soldiers and his own citizens. It was only because this war raged on for nearly ten years and the fact that Saddam was supported by the West that Khomeini was able to rally the population behind his cause and then dispose of all who opposed him - the communist Tudeh party, socialists, secularists, moderate Muslims.
Thus, a completely different situation in Iran 1979 than in Egypt 2011.
 
Niklas  Anzinger

February 8, 2011

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"Of course the status of minority rights in these countries can, and should be, criticised, but it should to be forget that there is a long tradition of tolerance."

This is not true. Of course looking at a short phase of relative calmity in comparison to other countries could point out some indications for the existence of these times - but mostly it wasn´t the case.

"And now, as the author points out, Copts and Muslims, secularists and religious people set their differences aside and protest (for the most part) peacefully and side by side."

Nevertheless this could be true. Though I would reject your statement that they lived in relative peace before - note: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/11/Religious-Freedom-...

I recently made an interview with an Egyptian protester, who convinced me that revolutions change the people´s minds: http://www.propagandistmag.com/2011/02/07/interview-egyptian-protester

But we will not know for sure.

"What does this mean for the Muslim Brotherhood? Of course, no one can know their "real intentions", but right now, they can hardly be criticised for not behaving like good democrats."

The Supreme Leader called for Jihad against America and for war against Israel. Of course we can tell their real intentions, but we can just speculate about their capabilities to reach their goals. In this case both arguments of the pessimists and the optimists can be raised.

Their ideology is not that different from Khomeneism, which not only goes back to Shi´a myths, but also modern Islamist global jihad theory forming into the doctrine of Islamic theocracy expanding and Islamizing the whole world. The MB are the pioneers for some components of these theories. You should have a look at MB ideology more closely - I could recommend Barry Rubins "The Muslim Brotherhood: The Organization and Policies of a Global Islamist Movement."

Khomenei turned it into an Islamic Revolution, it is all written in his books about the ideal Islamic state. This has few to do with the Iran-Iraq war and less with Western support of Saddam. The massive waves of political cleansing began before the war, which has not the only background of Saddams aggression but also Khomeneis religious doctrine presenting Saddam as Satan leading the Iranians into an extermination war (to become an Islamic state you could say). Glad you mention German proliferation of poison gas and other war material to Saddam - this is mentioned to rare in discussions!

 

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