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October 15, 2008 |  42 comments |  Print | E-Mail Your Opinion  

Stop the Wishful Thinking about Russia

Anna Nadgrodkiewicz: Russia’s authoritarian tendencies will continue to make it a threat to international security. Allowing Russia to define and act within a self-proclaimed sphere of interest will not make anyone safer.


September 17th marked the 69th anniversary of the Soviet invasion of Poland at the outset of WWII. With Russian tanks rolling across Georgia’s borders just a few weeks ago, this anniversary was particularly unnerving. The troubling parallel is that, concerning dimensions crucial to international security, the Russia of today is not much different from the Soviet Union in 1939.

Unlike Germany, Russia has never made a clear break with its militaristic past so painfully remembered by its neighbors. To the contrary, common nostalgia is well summarized by Mr. Putin’s eulogy on the breakup of the USSR, which he described as “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

Pundits like Pat Buchanan have demonstrated one rather disturbing reaction to Russia’s resurgence: blaming the West for “the folly of getting into Russia’s space and getting into Russia’s face.” While the point about promising NATO membership to countries the alliance is not willing and/or able to defend is well taken, the broader implications of this line of reasoning remain troubling. Who exactly is to determine what the “Russia’s space” is? And by what principle should countries that chose a path of democratic transformation and integration with Western structures be denied that choice?

The assumption that pursuing some sort of realpolitik balance of power with newly belligerent Russia is in the West’s interest is simply incorrect. Authoritarian Russia will always be a threat, and allowing it to act on the self-proclaimed right to a “sphere of interest” is not going to make anybody any safer.

Russia’s lack of democracy makes it dangerous. This is not to say that Prime Minister Putin or President Medvedev are bloodthirsty despots à la Stalin. But should they turn their ambitions toward a renewed, aggressive international stance – as they seem to be – there aren’t any effective domestic checks and balances to stop them. As Natan Sharansky, a former Soviet dissident, put it, “If the root of the problem is to be addressed strategically, the focus must return not to this or that specific foreign policy action by Russia, but rather to the matter of democracy within Russia itself. Changing that should be the focus of statecraft today – if we want to ensure that the Kremlin poses no threat to peace tomorrow.”

In the absence of these internal safeguards, the fact that international leverage on Russia has also weakened – as demonstrated by the Georgian crisis – is a serious concern. In particular, America’s influence has been eroded by foreign policy blunders the magnitude of Iraq and economic mismanagement the size of a $700 billion bailout. So Russia is not likely to become a liberal democracy any time soon. But on the upside, it is not as strong as it appears, either:

  • Militarily, Russia cannot credibly aspire to control its neighbors. Imposing one’s will by brute force is costly, inevitably demoralizing, and in the end not worth it. Let’s not forget that it was the invasion of Afghanistan that dealt the final blow to the Soviet empire.
  • Economically, Russian power hinges on high oil and gas prices and on the trust of international markets. Both have lately taken a tumble amidst the global crisis. The meltdown of Russia’s financial sector has been astounding: foreign investors fled and the stock market fell dramatically.
  • Politically, Russia is not as influential on the international arena as it would like to be. It’s not the leader of “sovereign democracies.” The meeting of the Shanghai Group, where China and others refused to provide backing for the Kremlin’s action in Georgia, clearly showed that.

How, then, can the West approach Russia in a constructive way? First, it’s time for a realistic assessment of today’s Russia without politically expedient doublespeak. Mr. Putin is not a great democrat, no matter how deeply one looks into his soul. This doesn’t mean that the West should not seek to engage with Russia on a number of issues ranging from energy security to nuclear proliferation. But we should deal with Russia as is, not as we wish it to be. It is precisely the lack of democratic institutions, rule of law, and transparent decision making that makes Russia such an unpredictable and difficult partner.

Anna Nadgrodkiewicz is a member of Washington DC-based American Polish Forum, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization dedicated to advancing issues of significance to the United States and Poland in the 21st century.

Related materials from the Atlantic Community:

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Tags: | Medvedev | Putin | Georgia | Russia |
 
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Member deleted

October 15, 2008

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I almost could agree everything you said if Russia would be changed USA in your article.
For fresh debate I would make few alterations to your article:

¤ Last winter we had 63th anniversary when Russian tanks liberaded Poland from Nazi occupation and a month ago they made the same in two Georgian provinces
¤ Unlike Germany, US has never made a clear brake with its militaristic past like attacking sovereign states, supporting cups and dictatorships everywhere where its military-industrial complex can have some benefits
¤ The blind fanatism of US religious right combined to nostalgia of cowboy policy and today's interests of military-industry complex are making thread to peace around the globe, US quasi-democracy is not making any safeguard to rest of world
¤ Unlike Russia US has tendency to be aggressive around the globe not near its own borders
¤ Unlike Russia US is implementing their own agenda outside international law undermining international forums which could regulate violent acts

So US is not likely to change its aggressive policy soon, however some light for better one can see from trends, that

¤ US ecnomy is almost in bankcrupty after long overspending and actual turmoil, maybe Chinese banks could put some ethical rules while saving US with their money
¤ US military is occupied with former aggressions so it takes time before it can attack again
¤ Politically US is not anymore so strong than before, during last weeks voting about Kosovo case only few ocean islands and Albania (6 states together) was backing US, and some 190 not.

 
Jesse  Schwartz

October 15, 2008

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I think it's important to note that aggression begets further aggression. We should recall that Mikheil Saakashvili was elected on a rather pugnacious platform of reunification. And while, admittedly, there was banditry in South Ossetia, one would be rather disingenuous if they believed that Saakashvili's ostensible claims of quelling banditry did not belie his campaign pledges and intentions.

It's unfortunate that it takes such brazen acts of violence for these "hot spots" to come to the world's attention; after all many experts predicted a flare up in this region months in advance. With proper diplomatic engagement - prior to, not after tensions have violently manifested - perhaps we can avoid such conflagrations in the future.

And yes, Anna is correct when she claims, "It is precisely the lack of democratic institutions, rule of law, and transparent decision making that makes Russia such an unpredictable and difficult partner." I just think it's essential to paint a more complete picture. After all, was this war really about Georgia's "democratic transformation and integration with Western structures?" Or was the heavy-handed response more a matter of sending a message to Saakashvili?
 
Marek  Swierczynski

October 15, 2008

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Thank you, Ari, for clarifying important aspects of recent and less recent history. I really didn't know that parts of Georgian territory were under Nazi occupation until August 2008. I'm wondering what is Simon Wiesenthal waiting for? His people should go and arrest Mr Saakashvili immediately, shouldn't they? I also didn't quite realize the importance of the Soviet tanks liberating Poland, perhaps because they waited six months before they crossed the river Vistula to see Warsaw reduced to ruins... But maybe it takes a look from Finland, a country that has enjoyed so much freedom from the Soviet influence and propaganda in the XXth century, to see clearer. And this is probably why you stress the danger of aggression around the globe, because aggression near the aggressor's borders is fine, as you seem to suggest, and is totally justified within the borders. With your Balkan experience I assume you accept that igniting aggression could be performed as near as you like. Sorry for being so nasty, nothing personal.
Tags: | history clarified!!! |
 
Unregistered User

October 15, 2008

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To Jesse,

"Or was the heavy-handed response more a matter of sending a message to Saakashvili?"

No, the message was to the West As well as recently heard plans to build three aircraft carriers. It is not Georgia nor, for that matter, Poland you fight with aircraft carriers...

The key point Anna made was:

"Russia’s lack of democracy makes it dangerous"

Most of the people here don't care of political freedoms Russians lack or want to keep lacking. Basically, "old Europe" is ready to sell that for gas, together with Georgians, Ossetians, Abkhazians, and Poles too, should it come into question.

The problem is that the lack of democracy made Kremlin's inhabitants completely out of touch with reality. Remember that USSR was unable to complete just one aircraft carrier. This is dangerous for all, not only just for Poles.
 
Member deleted

October 15, 2008

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To Marek,

If Russians did not liberate Poland on the end of WWII so who did it. My comparison to Georgia was provocative even maybe someone could make slight correlation between nazism and Saakashvili style nationalism/patrionism/populism. I also think that from Finland it is possible to look politics and relations to Russia quite cool way without over-sentimentality - we have managed our relationships with USSR and then Russia quite peaceful and some times profitable maners (e.g. trade relations). I also understand better aggressions on common borders where there can be direct conflicts between interests, but I do not accept aggressions far away only to make business profits to small corporate elite. Like normally I was a little nasty against US only to highlight other side of reality, my base message is anyway that we need international forums - like UN - and int. law to try solve present and coming conflicts peaceful means.
 
Anna  Nadgrodkiewicz

October 16, 2008

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Ari, while your criticisms of the U.S. may well be legitimate and highlight problems worthy of concern in their own right, you do not really address the point I make about the troubling lack of democratic accountability in Russia. Simply saying that Russia is no worse than the U.S. is a) not really true in terms of how the policy-making process, whether on foreign or domestic issues, works in both countries; b) not an argument that gives Russia a moral high ground for claiming some sort of near-abroad sphere of influence. As far as your reference to the “liberation” of Poland by Soviet troops after WWII, I just want to point out one thing: the word liberation is a form of the word “liberty.” I think you would be hard pressed to find any examples in the political, economic, or social spheres where the forced Soviet presence in Poland or any other ex-Eastern bloc country brought a measure of increased freedom.
 
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October 16, 2008

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Anna, I think that one difference between our approach is related to relative conception. E.g. I say that I can understand BETTER aggressions on border areas THAN far away regions. Other relative definitions concerns about word democracy, it can have different values and variations in different cultures and I am e.g. democratic accountability in US, when making mess abroad US has some immunity against war crime charges at global level. With liberation I meant liberation about nazi-occupiers in Poland, again it can be relative if you prefer that they (nazis) were better alternative than liberation by Russian tanks. I understand your point about forced Soviet presence related to freedom but ask same time how and to whom US aggressions and support of dictatorships in South America brought freedom. The bottom line anyway is that with my comments I do not seek neutral, absolute truth, instead I via debate or sometimes via provocation try to find different sides of topic.
 
Bernhard  Lucke

October 16, 2008

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I do not really want to involve deeply in the comments on Russia, since I lack personal experiences in that country. But I agree that the missing democracy in Russia is dangerous, and also that the increasingly imperialist US foreign policy of the recent years must be feared. Both seem connected: perhaps we are witnessing a revival of the colonial spirit of the late 19th century with its division of the world into spheres of influence.

I would like to turn your attention to some historical changes in Europe, which I find remarkable. Most of the Slavic countries which were under Austrian rule until 1918 were very pro-Russian in these days (Pan-Slavism), but today most are very anti-Russian (except Serbia, but which was never under Soviet rule). As a German, I can of course understand that the communist regimes and Russian occupation were harsh experiences. However, east Germany was also Russian occupied. I'm a west German now living in east Germany. My family fled East Germany shortly before the Berlin wall was built. So my education was very anti-Russian, and I find it interesting that the perception of Russia in East Germany is quite positive today. And perhaps the common German view, strongly influenced by historic experiences, is that we try to be as fair as possible, and not to embark again on anti-Russian feelings. And we are wondering that our eastern European neighbours consider this a "cooperation with a potential enemy". But again, we probably underestimate how history affects our feelings in the present. Just think about the nearly forgotten Polish-Soviet war of 1920/21, which was a very tough conflict in the aftermath of World War I.

I think the "new Europe"-countries illustrate very well how much we need the US in Europe as a guarantor of democracy and stability, and as mediator. But we can exercise positive influence in Russia only if we see Russia as partner. If they feel threatened by the west - and I think they had good reason for that - this will not help to achieve more democratic freedom there. Especially since Russians had to experience how their country sled into ruin and corruption under Gorbatchow and Jelzin despite (or because?) all the western advisors.

Maybe Germans like me tend to be a little naive, but I am convinced that the "peace" spirit of the 68-generation had not only very positive and powerful effects, but is needed more than ever before. The current re-armament of most countries in the world creates an illusive security and reminds me to the beginnings of World War I. I'm afraid that the events in the Near East - perhaps a seismograph for world tensions as a "hot spot" of world politics - cast a bad omen for other regions like Caucasus and Eastern Europe.
 
Jesse  Schwartz

October 16, 2008

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I'd like to reference everyone to an article featured in today's Top Press Commentary regarding this topic: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1015/p09s01-coop.html
 
Member deleted

October 16, 2008

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Thanks Jesse, article you recommended was very interesting and analytical too. I can also agree many points Bernhard highlighted.

Discussing about transatlantic relationship with Russia I can see a triangle drama with "western" camp. US has found stalwart allies from "New Europe" Polish-Lithuanian tandem as its spearhead, who are serving as America's watchmen on Europe's periphery as well cannon fodder in demanding theaters. The tandem with some wingmen (Estonia, Latvia) have their role in expanding Western military ties to East Europe and checking Russia's energy grip on Europe.

We have "Old Europe" like Germany, Italy some cases Spain and France also, who are more interesting about strategic political and business partnership with Russia. Old Europe countries are also developing bilateral cooperation with Russia when they see its advantages.

While some "New Europe" countries still have some post-Soviet trauma, US is tied to her self-caused conflicts and "Old Europe" is wondering how the Union will look in future, it is demanding task to find a common approach to relationship with Russia. While Russia also considers its options I can only hope that some neutral forum for dialogue could be found.
 
Unregistered User

October 16, 2008

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Ari,

you say:

1. "Discussing about transatlantic relationship with Russia I can see a triangle drama with "western" camp."

2. "I can only hope that some neutral forum for dialogue could be found."

Purely mathematically from 1 & 2 follows that, it must be 3 dialogues as you have three participants.

Since you are using psychotherapeutic glossary, the Europe's schizophrenia in international relations must be overwhelmed first. Further when you talk about Russian neighbors having a trauma, that does not look like a feasible explanation of their behavior. Trauma presumes a state solely derived from some past event (Soviet occupation). This hypothesis does not explain facts. The UK and US were never occupied by the USSR, yet they seemingly suffer a similar traumatic syndrome, in your terminology. Parts of Finland and Germany are still occupied by Russia, yet there is no trauma. Then according to your theory the "old Europe" should have a kind of post-NATO trauma, as they strive to relieve themselves from their transatlantic obligations. Can you elaborate on your point?
 
Member deleted

October 16, 2008

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To Russian ... Yes I hope that one or more forums can accommodate different dialogs. Europe schizopherenia will be cured either in some common forum or with two rail development where new and old Europe maybe are going with different speeds and maybe also different directions. I do not agree with your trauma hyphothesis because even if symptoms maybe are similar the cause/motivations differ. Post-Soviet maybe have more emotional cause for their actions, US maybe have more economical priorities as well some old EU states.
 
Unregistered User

October 16, 2008

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"Post-Soviet maybe have more emotional cause for their actions, US maybe have more economical priorities as well some old EU states."

Sorry, but that does not work either. According to this logic US economical interests should be that reason for their negative attitude to Russia. How so? Where are Russian goods competing American ones? Putin's Russia sells oil and gas, nothing else. Maybe it is because of Russian occupation devastated Georgian vineyards? No, I bet nobody in the USA even knows anything about great Georgian vines. So where is a clash economical interests?

Maybe it is so that "old Europeans" are emotional about the US, and economically thirsty for Russian gas?

Look, basically there are two approaches. One, represented by Anna, is that people are at least biologically equal and therefore a liberal democratic model should fit them well. When ruled undemocratically, the corresponding countries may become dangerous. Another approach is far from that clear. It is certainly not Marxist, nevertheless many lefties follow it. I honestly try to understand it, what is in beyond emotions towards America and gas...
 
Unregistered User

October 16, 2008

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To a "Rusian In Germany"

Tell me, please, just one thing...Are you a real Russian? Is it your ethnicity? Or you just hold or used to hold a Russin passport? Hatred towards Russia, which you oftenly demostrate, is a telltale sign of so-called "Anti-Putin, pro-western Russian liberals" the majority of whom are ethnically non-Russians and as such posess quite strong Russophobic convictions.
 
Member deleted

October 17, 2008

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To Russian (really?) in Germany about economical interests

It is sad if nobody in US knows about great Georgian vines. Personally I have enjoyed a lot about Grusian, Armenian and other Caucasian brandies and sometimes enjoy still because the taste is superior compared compared e.g. Tennessee bourbon. However this is not the economical interest I had in my mind.

1st I would like to mention energy. Georgia is part of a NATO military alliance (GUAM) signed in April 1999 at the very outset of the war on Yugoslavia. It also has a bilateral military cooperation agreement with the US. These underlying military agreements have served to protect Anglo-American oil interests in the Caspian sea basin as well as pipeline routes. (The alliance was initially entitled GUUAM, Uzkbekistan subsequently withdrew and the name was changed to GUAM: Georgia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Moldova). More you may find from my article 9th Sep.2008 "War on Pipes: Transport corridors as core of US-Russia confrontation" where is write about GUUAM and SRS (Silk Road Strategy Act). Article one may find from my BlogArchive, address http://arirusila.wordpress.com.

2nd let me mention "military-industrial complex". When Russia’s invading forces choked roads into Georgia with columns of armored vehicles and struck targets from the air, it instantly bolstered the case being made by some that the Defense Department isn’t taking the threat from Russia and China seriously enough. It was said that "Christmas Comes Early For The Military Industrial Complex.

The US government borrows heavily to cover its off-the-charts defense spending—$587 billion this year. Spending in Iraq and Afghanistan is from 2.9 - 5.0 bn$ per week or 280.000 - 500.000 $ per minute.

The five largest American Defense contractors are Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon and General Dynamics. They are being followed by Honeywell, Halliburton, BAE Systems and thousands of smaller defense companies and subcontractors. Some, like Lockheed Martin in Bethesda (Maryland) and Raytheon in Waltham (Massachusetts) draw close to 100 percent of their business from defense contracts. Some others, like Honeywell in Morristown (New Jersey), have important consumer goods divisions. All, however, stand to profit when expenditures on weapons procurements increase. In fact, U.S. defense contractors have been enjoying big Pentagon budgets since March 2003, i.e. since the onset of the Iraq war. As a result, they have posted sizable increases in total shareholder returns, ranging from 68 percent (Northrop Grumman) to 164 precent (General Dynamics), from March '03 to September '06.

For war profiteers, soldiers returning maimed or in caskets, and a over $500 billion Pentagon budget paid for by the taxes of ordinary citizens, are externalities -- costs and consequences borne by others.

3rd there are lobbyists. In Georgia case most famous is Randy Scheuneman. Top McCain foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheuneman, was paid $200,000 recently by Georgia for consulting services, about one day before McCain issued a policy statement backing and emboldening the Republic of Georgia in its grab for disputed regions. And it now appears that McCain may have signaled that the US would essentially have Georgia's back if it tried to assert possession of the territories. Since 2004 Scheuneman got $900.000 from Georgia. Recently US promised over 1 bn$ taxpayers money to Georgia - god investment I must say, for Georgians.

Lobbying can have also win-win effect to players. E.g. Bruce Jackson founded the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq in 2002, a few months after retiring from Lockheed Martin. One can image, as the war in Iraq grinds on at a cost of some $250-400 million per day, and another contractor-heavy organization, the Iran Policy Committee, calls for a pre-emptive strike against Iran, how US Foreign politics is guided.

The top five U.S. defense contractors generated almost $129 billion in revenues and $8 billion in profits in 2006, double the revenue and profits in 2000 when George Bush became President.

Here some economical interests.

 
Member deleted

October 17, 2008

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One more comment to Russian ...

You mentioned also competition. Of course also Russia has Gazprom and its own military-industrial complex and they are competing in some markets as USA. In original article there was some nice words about democracy. Sad story is, that citizen role in this game is to pay taxes via state to companies' pockets and in worst case die for some greedy for profit stakeholders.
 
Unregistered User

October 17, 2008

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OK, here is your list:

Position 1. The argument is that the US is hostile towards Russia because it wishes to secure oil supply from Caspian region to Europe. Sounds silly, at least. Why is it the USA and not the EU? Why there is no hostility towards Turkey south of? Needn't gas supply to same Europe to be secured?

Position 2. To summarize it is militarism, an image of enemy, arms lobby. This does not explain why Russia and why now. There already exists the enemy no.1: militant Islam. The enemy no.2 obviously is [will be] China. There are two (sic!) ongoing wars. Iran and possibly Pakistan are in the pipeline. Note that this list covers all possible types of warfare, from total to pin point hits, navy, infantry, air, space (China entered space). So the Complex may require contracts on whatever types of arms anybody might imagine. Do they need that economic pygmy as no.3? Especially when the no.2 will take on it pretty soon?

Position 3. Georgians bribing American officials? That's impressive. Russians do not, cannot, may not? Ah, maybe they aren't really ethnic Russians. Well, well...

None of these positions are any economical. They are conspirational. I am sorry to see that sort of theories in XXI century's Europe.
 
Marek  Swierczynski

October 17, 2008

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Once again the murky figures of defence industry fat-cats have emerged from a discussion on international relations and once again it is them that are pointed as the real rulers of this world. Of course only those from the US, they take the full blame for bloodshed and grief worldwide. Others are just providing necessary means to protect innocent countries from militarist aggression. But if we take the numbers in consideration, vast majority of conflicts worldwide are small-arms business. And much more people die from AK-47's and landmines made in China or North Korea than F-16's or missiles made in USA. By coincidence the US defence contractors are among the US largest employers and the military business means a lot to the US economy. Reducing procurements means slashing jobs, anyone ready for that when elections come? I think it's a bit more complicated than just succesful lobbying on Capitol Hill...
 
Member deleted

October 17, 2008

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To Russian etc. some comments:

1) Anglo-American companies have some common interests with Caspian lines and with Nabucco also as competion with South Stream. Central Europe can secure gas via Baltic Sea pipeline so it does not need war for that.
2) The profits of military-industrial complex have went upwards but like normal business they are greedy for more. One should also remember the wide variety of goods and services gaining war profits. E.g. US has out-sourced some military activities, big money is also going to service- and infrastructure contracts (Cheney-Halliburton ex).
3) The companies of biggest war profits can make biggest donations, pay most influential lobbyists, regulate administrative decisions and regulations.

Some of these points are valid in EU also. The New Defence Agenda (NDA) is part of Brussels growing military-industrial complex. Set up in 2003, it is funded by arms producers Lockheed Martin and BAE Systems in order to promote higher European military spending. Real transatlantic cooperation or what!

Others arms industry lobby groups include the European Association of Aerospace Industries (AECMA) and the European Defence Industries Group (EDIG). The arms industry is also using the Lisbon Agenda and competitiveness to argue their case for increasing the EU?s current defence spending of about 3 percent of GDP to the US level of 6 percent.

 
Francisco J. Ruiz

October 17, 2008

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Great debate and very good points; evidently this seems to be the more interesting topic nowadays, if we see the number of comments for both this article and my article “US-EU-Russia: not a zero sum game” a couple of weeks ago.

Just a couple of questions: for the Russian (I really think you are) in Germany, your opinions are very valuable, even when I disagree with them, but it would be fantastic if you accepted the suggestion of the Atlantic Community staff for using your real ID.

The other: it is evident the existence of a Polish lobby openly hostile against Russia, based not only on the current events, but also on old rivalries. It is very relevant that, at the beginning of the article, Anna mentions the anniversary of the soviet invasion of Poland (17th September 1945), when most of the people would mainly remember the German invasion, which happened 16 days in advance and represented the beginning of WWII.

Going back in time, she could remember the Jagelon dynasty, the Polish-Lithuanian union and the invasion of Moscow in 1610, as well as the war in 1920 between the two countries, but that historic revival doesn’t make any sense. What is clear to me is that a strategic agreement EU-Russian Federation is paramount for the future of the continent, and it is frustrating to have to overcome the ancestral hates of some eastern countries (specially Poland) every time we need to negotiate with Russia.

So maybe Poland would be more comfortable out of the EU and establishing a strategic partnership with the US…oops!, I forgot that you are getting a bunch of money from the Union, and your people are massively leaving the country for working on the West, taking advantage of the free transit regulations.

Don’t misunderstand me, I think that Polish people are fantastic and the country has a great future, but I’m simply fatigued about some overemotional comments against Russia.
 
Donald  Stadler

October 17, 2008

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"Most of the Slavic countries which were under Austrian rule until 1918 were very pro-Russian in these days (Pan-Slavism), but today most are very anti-Russian (except Serbia, but which was never under Soviet rule). "

This is quite natural. Austria was the hegemon to these people before WWI Russia challenged that hegenomy, and the USSR was the hegemon after WWII, while the US challenged that hegenomy.


"However, east Germany was also Russian occupied. I'm a west German now living in east Germany. My family fled East Germany shortly before the Berlin wall was built. So my education was very anti-Russian, and I find it interesting that the perception of Russia in East Germany is quite positive today.""

People growing up in East Germany were educated to a pro-USSR view. Since the fll of the Berln Wqall they have experienced economic instability and have been regarded as the 'poor cousins' by their West German counterparts. It is natural for them to be nostalgic for the times when they were the workshop of the Warsaw Pact.

One more difference is that it seems to Germans the US is the primary hegemon on the planet today, not the Russians. So there is far more anger at the US than Russia;Germans see russia as a potential ally against US hegenomy, if not against the US complketely.
 
Francisco J. Ruiz

October 17, 2008

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When I wrote my comment, and talking about the beginning of WWII, I obviously wanted to say 1939, instead of 1945, sorry about the mistake.
 
Unregistered User

October 17, 2008

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To Francisco,

there is a weak point in your logic. Poland had similar incidents with Germany, Austria, Sweden etc. And what about Spain? Why aren't you hostile towards France?

I think that Poles are so afraid because they see a well-known pattern. I am alarmed too, because I am old enough to recognize this pattern. That's why I prefer not to publish my ID. Believe me, soviet people suffered from USSR more than Poles. (Though this by no means is an excuse for us for what the USSR did to others.)

Talking about partnership with Russia do not forget that cooperation is a tool. For what goal? Does the EU want to freeze the current state of affairs in Russia? Then yes, it should continue to pump gas. Do you believe it is in Russian interests to be a gas field for Europe? If the EU indeed wished to cooperate, it would have told Airbus to build plants there; EADS to develop a new generation fighter jets together with Russia, themselves to start a joint industrial fission reactor project etc. That would be a cooperation needed by Russia. The kind of cooperation promoted now is to support the fat cats in the EU and the thugs governing Russia. It is the policy which made the incursion into Georgia possible.

The "old Europe" will not secure itself this way. Look at other Petro-regimes. Does any of them like the West? Do not buy oil if you want friends!
 
Donald  Stadler

October 17, 2008

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'Russian', I agree with some of your points about industrial cooperation, but I disagree about the fighter jet. Airbus, yes, Volkswagen, yes, Alcatel, yes. But I'm not sure next-gen fighters is a great idea. Not until Russia is fully integrated into the EU and/or NATO...
 
Unregistered User

October 17, 2008

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"Not until Russia is fully integrated into the EU and/or NATO"

Yes, I took it for granted. Surely Russia must become a full member of NATO. Russia's only future is with the West. It sounds unrealistic now, after what happened. The West lost an opportunity to integrate Russia in 90's. So Russia has transformed itself into a Latino-American dictatorship, vocal, nasty, weak and poor.

Therefore one more round is needed. And, let us be honest to ourselves each such round starts with a Cold War. Putin has it already. Just play that tune with him. It won't be so long this time.
 
Marek  Swierczynski

October 17, 2008

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With EADS and Russia it might be a question of when rather than if they both launch a serious defence program. Already the EADS has its subsidiaries in Russia and the Russian government actually holds more than 5% stake in the company via a state-owned bank. The acquisition was subject to critical analysis by the IISS in London and they actually warned that the move will have strategic consequences for Europe and the USA. It is worth remembering that after the British withdrawal from the EADS, and the scandal with the French management a few years ago, the company is effectively run by the Germans, who - as said here - do not share many concerns about Russia. But developing hi-tech programs together is questionable, as Russian technologies are mostly obsolete in conventional weapons (with exception to missiles, torpedoes and airframe design). I would agree that eventually the West may have no other choice but to integrate Russia, and integration of defence industries will also take place. But no sooner that 2050 at the earliest. Some generations will have to die out before that happens.
 
Donald  Stadler

October 17, 2008

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"Just play that tune with him. It won't be so long this time."

Perhaps two more rounds. A piece in Bloomberg today:

"Putin May Use Credit Squeeze to `Destroy' Oligarchs"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aR7ZSZbKh0so&re...

The problem is that if the oligarchs aren't squeezed first they will have too much pwer in the new Russia to make it a good fit for the EU and possibly for NATO. So Putin uses the crash to deflate the oligarchs, but what brings down Putin?

Answer: The falling oil price, same as what will bring down Chavez and
Ahmadinejad. A piece in the NY Times yesterday about the price of oil falling to $70 a barrel stated that Iran and Venezuela need $95 bbl to balance their budget, and Russia needs $70 bbl to balance,

Perhaps. I asume that there exists potential centers of power in Russia other than Putin, that he will not succeed in making himself into Stalin II. If that is so, then those other centers will pull him down when he weakens sufficiently. With oil at a low price, presumably they will be more open to the West the way Yeltsin was, and this time perhaps NATO won't blow the gaffe.

It could work.
 
Unregistered User

October 17, 2008

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An interesting perception Donald, but I think that Putin cannot become a new Stalin.

I think that the key features of Stalin regime were:

1. A strong party capable to control the country.
2. State slavery. The first echelon was formed by the prisoners of concentration camps. The second was by peasants.
3. Isolation and self-sustainability of the country.

Position 1. Putin has neither of these factors. Instead of Party there is an old nomenclature. It is a result of long evolution of the Party. Note that the success of Khrushchev was because it emancipated the Party from Stalin’s terror. When he started to monopolize power, the party replaced him with Brezhnev, who “let them live.” This was actually the start of reforms, when civil liberties begun to gradually propagate down the pyramid of power, and the third generation of nomenclature tasted the Western life style. Gorbachev rather lost control over this process. There could be two scenarios then:

1. The nomenclature could legalize their power as a new nobility, finding a uniting non-controversial figure to warrant their rights. For example, they could bring Romanovs back. In turn Romanovs would represent the interests of common people, securing further slow propagation of freedoms down.
2. The nomenclature could be removed from power and put under strict lustration laws, in a sort of “denazification” process.

Unfortunately nothing like that happened. The nomenclature stayed in power, but this power became technically illegal. They converted a part of this power into money, capturing state property. Without Communist ideology it became merely a corrupt regime. Once again, like in 1918 the process of liberalization was broken. Now the property must change owners in one or two generations in order to become “legal.” Putin’s regime is braking this process acting outside the legal field (the Khodorkovsky’s case).

The clash between the “oligarchs” and Putin’s group was a quarrel within the nomenclature for that (stolen) property and influence. Don’t equate Khodorkovsky with Sakharov.

The nomenclature is incapable to exercise a control any close to one of the Stalin’s party. In fact, Putin do not even control many parts of the country. Regions like North Caucasus are feuds of local lords. His own group won’t let him get more power on them, than he already has.

Position 2. Communists before Stalin and Stalin himself destroyed millions people. USSR break-up halved what left. The resource is depleted. Rural areas of Russia are almost uninhabited.

Position 3. Russia imports a huge amount of goods, it cannot produce. The class structure of Russian society has dramatically changed. The Communist party ruled through the workers class. Peasants were indifferent and decimated. Now white-collars workers prevail. Communists rightfully distrusted them. They are selfish, independent, uncontrollable and cynic. They won’t support a new isolation or sacrifice themselves for an idea, Putin just does not have. Like the nomenclature they tasted the poisoned apple of Western life. There is no return.

The bad part is that the country rapidly moves on along the path known on the example of Latino-American dictatorship regimes. Such societies can run in circles for centuries until a fiasco breaks the circle. Russia needs help from outside.
 
Donald  Stadler

October 17, 2008

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Alright, 'Russian', I accept that Putin cannot become a untouchable dictator for the most part, with one question. Didn't Stalin establish the state slavery that was a feature of his reign?

But he clearly lacks a strong Party and the condition of isolation. I thought that was how oligarches arose (they were basically the members of the nomenklatura best-positioned to seize control of various state assets when the USSR collapsed).

How does ne break such a cycle? It seems to me that the power of the oligarchs must be reduced if not broken completely.

It also seems to me that the process leading to EU membership would be even more critical to this than NATO membership, although they go together.

The reason why the EU process is critical is because the EU will insist upon creation of strong pluralistic structures within Russian society before admitting it to membership. In particular reading about the oligarchs and Putin it seems pretty clear that the rule of law is extremely weak in Russia. The EU will force that to change
 
Unregistered User

October 18, 2008

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The “Russian in Germany” (sir, you must have serious reasons to hide your true identity) should remember that hate never pays. He has already “announced” a couple of new wars and is offering another round of cold war.

People of Europe, Russia included, make every effort to find a common ground and repair the damage that has been done to the continent by nearsighted and reckless “US interest always come first” policies. So many opportunities have been lost over the last 15 years. No European country can afford to stay on that bizarre track any more.

It’s regrettable that we still have “Russians in Germany” who keep pushing in that direction. They must be ignored.
 
Unregistered User

October 18, 2008

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"The reason why the EU process is critical is because the EU will insist upon creation of strong pluralistic structures within Russian society before admitting it to membership. In particular reading about the oligarchs and Putin it seems pretty clear that the rule of law is extremely weak in Russia. The EU will force that to change"

I fully agree with you. We also hoped that foreign investments in Russia could support the rule of law. That didn't happen. See how they run back. Investments is a very important yet secondary factor.

I think that the crucial problem is that the ruling elite feels its property insecure. It is not money that rule the country. Khodorkovsky must have learned that on his own back. A new repartition of the property would only devastate the country. It is a very difficult problem. In my opinion there must be started a process of reconciliation that would partially guarantee the corrupt elite their rights on what they have stolen, but stop further converting privileges into money. Gradually, decades later, and very carefully, some of them could be legally charged, as it happens now to former generals in Chile and Argentina.

This will be incredibly unpopular among commons, once mass media become free again.

Unfortunately Russia lacks clean figures like Juan Carlos or Desmond Tutu. I also don't know if the EU were ready to accept a rule of such "laws" in one of its members.
 
Unregistered User

October 18, 2008

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"He has already “announced” a couple of new wars and is offering another round of cold war."

Did I? Oh, I deeply regret that. My fault, I forgot to read recent speeches of President Medvedev, a rather minor typo error, though:

please, read "cold war" as "cold compulsion to peace."
 
Marek  Swierczynski

October 18, 2008

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Re: "Russian in Germany"
Please, my Russian friend, do not follow what the minor countries od the former communist bloc did. If you say: "there must be started a process of reconciliation that would partially guarantee the corrupt elite their rights on what they have stolen, but stop further converting privileges into money", you exactly copy the pattern of thinking that was implemented in Poland and some other places in the early 1990's. Almost 20 years since that, we're all sorry we did it in such a benign way and some, especially on the right side of the scene, regret we didn't go the Romanian way and shoot the monster down. I can imagine what kind of upheaval would be caused by the redical way of reconciliation in Russia - or revolution to be honest - but in a country like that is anything else really work? Has Russia ever been through an evolution in the modern times?
 
Unregistered User

October 18, 2008

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The window of opportunity was closed in 1991.

But did revolution ever work in Russia? Each time a revolution happened an old elite was replaced by a worse one. Compare Russian nobility with Lenin's Bolsheviks, them with Stalin's nomenclature, those with the present time bands. Along this path Russian elite lost everything, nobility, education, honor, ideals. Who will follow them this time?

Russia is a rich country, there is enough for everybody. Let them own that damned gas, if newcomers were allowed to freely create new high technological businesses together with the EU and, of course, the USA.
 
Donald  Stadler

October 18, 2008

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Good point, Russian. The way other nations handle elites is to run a system where they are not allowed to run the government indefinately. That way oher people can eclipse them without killing or completely impoverishing them.

The Rockefellers were once the richest family in the US. They aren't any more (though not poor), having been bypassed by the Kennedy's (who are now genteel upper middle class rather than rich), the Waltons (of Wal-Mart fame), the Gates, and Warren Buffett. But Gtes and Buffett say they are giving it all away like Andrew Carnegie did.

The problem with trying to control it all for all time is that one can lose it all plus your lives - as the Czarist nobility learned....
 
Member deleted

October 19, 2008

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Regarding elites in Russia I remember good situation 90s while working there with international projects. Allmost whole decade some dozen oligarchs were leading country without any control. When Putin came to power he at least could a little bit reconstruct state power which - even it is autocratic - brings slightly more democratic elements on table. This combined to economical development is creating wider middle class in Russia, creates better base to reduce poverty and brings also more stability in society. From my point of view Russia now has better possibilities for sustainable and demoratic development than ever before. Avoiding unneeded confrontations in international politics, understanding that Russia is not the same than 90s, could improve findng peaceful solutions for coming conflicts.
 
Unregistered User

October 20, 2008

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To "Russian in Gemany"
So, you did not answer my question. That makes me think that I was right in my assumption - you are not a Russian per se. But you represent a very small but vocal segment of Russian political sector whether in Russia or abroad. People like you understand, that with their deeply Russophobic convictions they can not come to power through the ballot boxes. They also can not let go their main theme - "Russia is bad and it is bad to be Russian". So, their only hope is an "orange revolution" in Russia, sponsored and organized from abroad, which will put them in hjwer and let them dismantle the Russian state. Not going to happen. The same goes for the dreams of Polish political and ideological elite, which are represented by the views of the author of this article. You will not be able to make "Russia pay" and you will not recreate the Polish mini-empire in the East.
 
Unregistered User

October 20, 2008

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To Alexander,

I would gladly give you an answer if you told us which set of nucleotide sequences of DNA to determine an "ethnic Russian." I hope you will undergo the test too. It would be pity if you turned a Mordvin, Chuvash or, God save us, a Jew...

It is not in Russian tradition and culture to give one's hand to those who undermine others because of their ethnic origin. Learn that, if you want to count yourself Russian.

I must apologize to our Polish friends for self-appointed "Russophiles." They like to proclaim themselves majority. But they are not. It only appears so, because as Pushkin wrote: "people is silent."
 
Joerg  Wolf

October 21, 2008

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@ "A Russian in Germany"

We appreciate your comments, but must also request that use your real name.

In fact, we believe that commenters are taken more seriously, if they reveal their real identity rather than use a nickname.

In fact, it would be best, if you would register for free and fill out the personal profile.

This would also enable you to network with our more than 1800 members. And it would also save you time commenting, since registered members (who are logged in) do not need to type those captchas. If you have already registered, but forgot your password, you can get a new one.

If you have any question, please do not hesitate to contact the atlantic-community.org staff.

Thank you!
 
Donald  Stadler

October 21, 2008

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Joerg, there are reasons for some commenters to draw a veil over their precise identity. I learned this lesson personally some years ago when I used my own name on a public forum in the US. Another participant on the forum used this information to research private matters of mine and posted that information on the forum to embarrass or perhaps intimidate me.

In the case of 'Russian' the stakes could possibly be higher than mere embarrasment, as certain parties in Russia have been alleged to take very direct action against those who oppose their interests. Such risks may not necessarily to 'Russian' - they could also be to members of his family or friends still living in Russia.

Paranoia remains a survival trait in certain situations - even in the so-called 'enlightened' era we live in.
 
Member deleted

January 18, 2009

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President Putin said “I do not want Russia to have the kind of Democracy George Bush has in the US.”
Forcing Germany into a democracy after ww1 only helped cause ww2. Forcing other countries into something they don't fully understand or like does not work.

The original Democracy in Athens allowed for both the election and removal of officials. If an official was not doing good things for a country the people could vote them out of office. Since Athens was a small place political leaders generally served a one year term.
Since the world is more densely populated now things are a little different. Democracy although it gives many individual freedoms for travel, speech and socializing, it still gives the government ultimate power in managing economics and wars.

Modern Republican economics lend closer to Free Market Anarchism which gives the corporations full power to do what they want with police and military support. In the US 1920s era two things happened: 1st modern travel caused US citizens to want more time off from work to go on vacations and travel to have fun. Corporations saw this as a threat to their profits, because people who were not working a lot did not have as much money to spend on consumer products. 2nd Stock market chiefs figured out they could create stock bubbles by increasing the price of stocks beyond what they were actually worth. This resulted in a hyper inflated stock market over the years which eventually resulted in the depression.

1930s to recover from this, three programs were put into place: 1st Regulations were put on the stock market so they had to follow valid data to set stock prices. 2nd the Federal Reserve Bank to insure banks. 3rd A mass marketing campaign to get people to want to buy consumer products so they would work more earn money a buy more. You all know about the Keynesian economics used at the time so I won’t go into that again.

1980s Reagonomics although it strengthened US industries He also started deregulation. Jump to 1990s Senator Phil Graham gets more deregulations approved so a democracy now comes under Corporate rule ergo Free Market Anarchism. It is popular to give George Bush the credit for all of this; however the republicans laid the ground work long ago. The republicans fear communism so much they take extremes to go in the opposite direction, this results in economic collapse and requires many government bailouts which is in fact socialist style economics. This is called a “Self fulfilling Prophecy”.
 
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September 12, 2009

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Hi all. If the only prayer you ever say in your whole life is "thank you," that would suffice. Help me! Looking for sites on: Depots want to maintain the representative of alliances most patent-pending to supervise a themed strategy.. I found only this - [URL=http://www.fh-krems.ac.at/Members/Sales/pharmaceutical-sales-force-automation-systems]pharmaceutical sales force automation systems[/URL]. It leads such products astute as pathogen shores and sales hold goods. Available efforts also like responsibly used writing at no or used practice to the representing data. With love :cool:, Diamanta from Guyana.
 

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