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August 22, 2008 |  25 comments |  Print | E-Mail Your Opinion  

Transatlantic Unity Should Not Isolate Russia

Matthew Derek Crosston: The West needs some serious balance in the way it analyzes and discusses the Georgian conflict. Academics, diplomats, and journalists have come forward with a united response to Ossetia: Russia is showing ‘imperialist ambitions’ and ‘a disproportionate reaction.’ This is ridiculous.

Richard Holbrooke and Ronald Asmus wrote a piece shifting all responsibility onto Russia. Make no mistake: they are not alone. But the original spur involved Georgian action taken in the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. That resulted in numerous dead, including Russian peacekeepers. Holbrooke and Asmus inexplicably paste this over, saying ‘exactly what happened in South Ossetia last week is unclear.' This is insincere: Georgia sought to reestablish the infamous ‘constitutional order.' Why would Georgia seek to reestablish an order it never established to begin with? The South Ossetian region has de facto run its own affairs for a decade.

Many say Russia wants regime change since Saakashvili is pro-Western. Does Russia love Saakashvili? Clearly not. But the US loved him because of his cool stance towards Moscow. The US encourages candidates that are pro-Western because they would interfere with Russian influence. I do not criticize this policy per se, but why is America ranting when Russia pursues the same policy in its own interests? Why should Russia not want friendly presidents along its borders? When Holbrooke writes that Russia wants a full-scale invasion this is irresponsible: the last thing Russia wants is to occupy Georgia. Only America views occupation as an effective strategy. Also, some truly insidious hyperbole is being used against Russia. US commentators and Saakashvili himself liken it to Nazi Germany. This is dangerous because it is false and makes Russia less cooperative.

Holbrooke and Asmus said that Georgia was responding to repeated recent attacks by South Ossetian separatists. This is exaggerated and under their own logic it still should not have justified killing innocent civilians and Russian peacekeepers. Saakashvili himself wrote to the Washington Post, positioning himself and his country as a shining beacon of democracy. Condoleezza Rice has supported this view. This is grossly ignorant: political and economic corruption plagues his regime and Georgia's democracy is unstable at best. The Georgian president obviously wants this conflict to become a Western issue. Russian intelligence figures are convinced Saakashvili wanted a strong response from Russia in order to play the Western card. Bush and Rice et al have taken this bait. We come across as too eager to portray Russia as a devil but cannot fathom Georgia being equally ready to deceive. Naïve.

Violence and killing is always the worst-case scenario. Let us not make this situation regress further by falsely characterizing it in distinct black-and-white terms. Continuing to do so only prolongs the violence and further pushes Russia away from the West. I know it is a strange concept to consider: the West is always worried about whether it can regard Russia as a real ally. The incidents in South Ossetia and the West's subsequent reaction to them vividly show why Russia is equally concerned with suspicions about us. The conflict in Georgia, something which has been building for years and not merely days, is clearly a deep and desperate shade of grey. We should recognize that fact and understand that transatlantic unity is not truly unity if it is just for the sake of isolating Russia. From what I can see, there are too many presently in Washington who want exactly that to happen.

Maj. Matthew Crosston, PhD is a specialist on National Security and a professor of International Studies and Political Science at the Virginia Military Institute.

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Marek  Swierczynski

August 22, 2008

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Expressing criticism on Russia does not mean launching a whitewash campaign for Georgia. Most of comments agree that it was Georgia who fired the first shot, although provoked, and suffered results of Russian over-reaction. But the scale of the retaliation - way out of proportion, blatant cynicism of Russian leaders and irrespect to international law demonstrated by Moscow underpin the current mood among the commentators. Of course, Saakashvili did wrong - seems to be the bottomline - but Putin and Medvedev did even worse. Expectations versus Russia were raised higher than versus Georgia - to put it bluntly: everyone knew Saakashvili was a freak, but everyone wanted to believe Medvedev was different than Putin. Georgia profits also from the natural "sympathy for the victim", partly because it managed to convince the outside world it was a victim, partly because Russia is still regarded - and maybe it had just proved it's right - as potential aggressor against its newly-independent neighbors. Sometimes perceptions are more important than facts and realities. This may be the case.
 
Member deleted

August 22, 2008

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Very balanced opinion from USA for long time, thank you. Georgia is one again failed example about US Foreign policy which aims to create classical “banana republic” to eastern Europe where US controls crucial foreign and/or domestic policies of another nation through ties with its military and intelligence institutions. EU's military, political, and corporate elites have already increasingly become dependents or confederates of the US military-industrial complex.

The bluff of this policy has normally been "western democracy" etc. However the record in Georgia was questionable. In one report, Human Rights Watch asserted that “the fragility of Georgia’s commitment to human rights and the rule of law was revealed on Nov. 7, 2007, when government forces used violent and excessive force to disperse a series of largely peaceful demonstrations in the capital, Tbilisi.” In the other report even (the Western nearly governmental elite lobby group) International Crisis Group warned of a creeping authoritarianism in Georgia and urged Western governments to pressure the regime in Tbilisi to respect democratic principles.

To show his admiration for the U.S. president, Saakashvili even renamed the main road to Tbilisi’s airport George W. Bush Street. It is good to think globally but better act locally. Like in Balkans before Caucasia is today suffering US cowboy policy which is creating unnecessary confrontation with Russia. There is maybe way out from banana republic status when local governments start to develop their policies more from domestic needs without too much adoring transatlantic short term games.
Tags: | Georgia | Balkans | US Foreign Policy |
 
joe  stone

August 22, 2008

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Wess,

I have read and reread your comments.

You make the stability of Europe a vital US interest using much of the same rational one finds at the Heritage Foundation. The bases for making this a vital US interest are the US fought two wars there. Put in very simple terms this translates into the US is there to prevent the Europeans from killing each other. It also means in nearly a 100 years nothing has changed. Europe today is just like Europe of 1914 or 1939 just waiting to explode in a blood bath should the US leave. Which makes me think you are worried that Luxemburg will attack germany at some point? Or are you saying the germans have some gene, which causes them to want to kill their neighbors?

With your opening remarks about Europe’s failures to provide for their own defense and the reasons for those lead me to believe you are very much a modern day democrat and/or a very poor parent. This is not a criticism but only an observation. One of the underlying philosophies of the modern democrat party is no one is accountable or responsible for the choices they make. As an example should you drop out of high school the results are you are going to be poor. Yet the democrat party solution to that is to redistribute money from me to that individual. I therefore am being punished for good behavior/choices and the other individual is being rewarded for bad behavior/choices.

This holds true for Europeans and their defense. You want the US to continue to reward the Europeans by providing for their security even as they choose to do nothing. You do not change bad behavior by rewarding it or enabling it. Hopefully you have not or will not do this with your children as a parent.

You seem to view Europe as a power center just as the Europeans do. I do not. You argue that instability in Europe is a threat to the US. If Europe has no power, and with the exception of economic power, they have none, how does this represent a threat to the US? In truth today instability in Europe only becomes a threat to the US if the US chooses to say it is a threat.

At least you gave an honest answer to the question about german mothers sending their sons off to Poland to protect freedom as opposed to enslaving ( the mystery gene again) the Poles. That is refreshing and is an answer one would not get from the likes of either a Gunnar or a Joerg.

*This leads me to ask you why should I be willing to send my grandson off to protect the freedom of either the Poles or the germans? It is obvious at least as it pertains to the germans, the spainards, the Italians, etc; they place little value on freedom. It would appear the Eastern European nations having once lost their freedom place a greater value on it. Or maybe I should be kind and say the chocolate summit plus spain and Italy does not share the value of freedom to the same degree as Americans or the Anglo-sphere does. The chocolate summit + 2 surely place no value on the sovereignty and freedom of their neighbors. You are equally correct in that germany is much more interested in propping up its welfare state than investing in its own security. This implies that the welfare of the individual german is more important than the individual welfare of an American. I do not doubt that is true from a german perspective.

*Do you think that the majority of the American people would agree with that concept – the individual welfare of a german is more important than their own welfare? Put another way, given the choice of providing Americans with universal healthcare or protecting Europe, how do you think the American people would vote on that issue?

You might think those choices are a bit harsh or unfairly framed but it is the same set of choices the germans have been making. Why can’t Americans have the same choice?

You move on smartly to the Russian invasion of Georgia as if it might be some wake up call. It would seem that alarm sounded in the US but not in Western Europe given the response from NATO.

*Why do you think that is the case?

To answer your question about Russia moving into any number of Eastern European nations, you are correct about the EU not preventing this. You are incorrect if you think NATO will prevent this. In fact, if anything NATO will prevent the US from taking action. There is nothing to prevent the Russians from doing this other than the US and a coalition of the willing both from inside and outside of NATO.

*You lay out a time line of 10 and 20 years. Do you think within Europe and within NATO there is going be a sufficient change in attitude to make their security and freedom more valuable to our so-called allies in 10 or 20 years? Look at what has happened in the last 20 years to both NATO and America’s relationship with most of Europe. We have gone from the grantor of their freedom to a threat to their peace and well-being. germany, as well as france, supports Russia more than it does the US.

Do you really believe this is going to change? What you are saying is the US must be prepared to stay in Europe forever regardless of the costs.

You want an insurance policy. This is supposedly for America. You are willing to double down. You are willing to spend the money of Americans and the blood of their children and grandchildren for the protection of Europe. You view this as a good investment. (I truly hope you have a professional managing your own investments.)

In all of this it appears you have failed to make any type of risk reward analysis or consider any comparative choices. I for one think a better reward would be healthcare for Americans or the development of alternative fuels for transportation. Either would provide greater benefits with a lot less risk. It would be interesting to see what choices the American people would make.

Finally you worry about the European getting their geopolitical house in order. I think it is very much in order already. And observation from VDH “The Europeans: Prioritize! 1) Don't jeopardize gas supplies from, and trade with, Russia; 2) Avoid any confrontation in any form; 3) Make sure that Bush does not do something stupid to draw us too far in, but at least does something to avoid leaving us too far out.”
“Bottom line: Luckily, Tbilisi is still a long way from Berlin and Paris!”

The Europeans have managed to keep the Americans engaged all the while developing strategic partnerships with those nations, which actually represent a threat to US national interests.

Maybe Americans should pay more attention, it seems we could learn a lot about how to better practice our own geo policies.


 
Unregistered User

August 22, 2008

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Cm'on...
"political and economic corruption plagues his regime and Georgia's democracy is unstable at best."
regarding democracy I can agree. We (I am bit younger than President Saakshvili) are still the generation, who graduate soviet schools... surely in spite many of us also studied abroad and theoretically we share ideas of Von Haiek - maybe we are unfortunately unable to free our minds from the past.. I want to be self-critical.
But also I should say - that even in Eastern European countries (f/e Czech) where democracy is much stable than in Georgia - they face sometimes problems - f/e tension around Czech TV ин 2001. Well-known case in fact.
We all come from the same soviet past.
Also - do not you think that one (not the sole of course) reason for Georgian instable democracy is also our neighbor Russia and it's influence.

But regarding corruption, that plagues regime in Georgia - this is far from the reality what you say. Really very far from reality.

As for allusions with the Third Reich... That was not only Saakashvili and US officials or analysts or whoever.
Sweden's Foreign Minister Carl Bildt was almost the first who said that... and anyhow - if Saakashvili or US commentators say something, that does not mean by default, that they lie... Why do we need Saakashvili, Asmus or Bildt comments, when it is obvious that Putin's Russia is using Hitler's doctrine “the right of German people to self-determination”. The analogs with f/e Sudets case are more than certain I think.

Everything this does not mean - Russia should be isolated.
The West had never done that in fact even during Soviet era.
Western help for "White Army" was really symbolic and tiny. Western "protection" over Caucasus and Ukraine at that time was a chimera (except maybe German's).
Finally The West got Soviet Union as a neighbor and was obliged to deal with it during 70 years. You should agree - that costs alot...

Later on, when Soviet Union was assisting Nazi's Germany to violate the Versailles Treaty, when Soviet Union was supplying Third Reich fuel for Luftwaffe, bombing London, when Soviet Union and Third Reich started the 2nd WW as allies - together The West was keeping their eyes wide shut.

When Germany signed capitulation, Soviets, that time already Western ally demanded from them to arrest and pass to NKVD (KGB) all soviet people found at concentration camps - later on most of them were transferred to Soviet concentration camps... moreover English had even arrested Cossacks and other old emigrants - people who never were Soviet citizens. All were passed to NKVD as well.

The West let Soviets to occupy after 2nd WW Eastern Europe. Let later on Soviet tanks to come once again to Budapest (Putin's hero - KGB resident Andropov was one who contributed well here) and Prague. etc...

Today West still assures itself that they face the Superpower... when in fact Russia is far from that... Real economic growth or GDP figures prove that the most.
Russia is far from being the Superpower. Today. But tomorrow it may become.
And The West would deal with it 170 years more...



 
Heinrich  Bonnenberg

August 23, 2008

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We have wars of brothers!

At the beginning, we had the military war of the historic brothers Georgia and Russia. Both are Orthodox Christians. Both fought together against the Ottoman Empire. Both fought together against Persian attacks. Both fought together against Nazi-Germany and its allies. The most important leaders/hardliners of the 400 million empire USSR (inclusive its satellite states) were Georgians: the Bolsheviks Iosef Vissarionovich dse Dzhugashvili, called Joseph Stalin, whose parents were half Ossetian and half Georgian, and Lawrenti Pawlowitsch Beria and Grigoriy Konstantinovich Ordzhonikidze, called Sergo Ordzhonikidze.

And subsequently, we have gotten a European media war of cultural brothers, of some EU-Europeans and Russia, an idiotic war which is characterized by untruths and indignities.

Both wars of brothers have in fact no winners. They only have losers. But there is no war without a winner. There has to be a winner. Obviously, all losing brothers are fallen into somebody’s trap.

I am really not willing to be a consumer of marshmallow: to accept the European war of brothers and to fight against the brother Russia.
Without hesitation, I invited Russian friends to the Bayreuth festival of operas of the European genius Richard Wagner.
We met many other Russians during the performance and we experienced European culture, together with Katharina Wagner, the great granddaughter of Richard Wagner who fought together with his friend Mikhail Bakunin in the European revolution 1849 in Dresden (having spent the next twelve years in exile, in Zurich and Paris) and who successfully guested in St. Petersburg and Moscow in 1863.
I ask all Europeans, mainly my German friends for a very active intensifying theirs connections to theirs Russian friends, business partners, scientific colleagues, fellow students in these days of the war of brothers. We all need us each other to become accepted takers in the challenges of worldwide competition.

Let us cork up all kinds of emotions and let us start to discuss and to answer the three following questions:
1. Who has put up the Caucasian trap and why has he done it?
2. For what individual reason all mentioned brothers have walked into the trap of the two wars?
3. Which third party or parties are the winners of the wars of brothers?
Tags: | War in Europe |
 
joe  stone

August 23, 2008

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Major Matthew Crosston

Forgive me for being confused about whether your article is a serious position or satire.

I have to assume you are opposed to the idea of democratic elected leaders who pursue a capitalist market economy or the concept of sovereign nations. You raise the deaths of Russian peacekeepers and then later state Russia does not want to occupy Georgia as only the Americans see this as an effective strategy.

It would seem Russia was already occupying Georgia just not as much of it as it does today. I for one do not see occupation as an effective strategy unlike Wess Mitchell who thinks for the stability of Europe that the US must remain in what amounts to an occupying force. So I welcome your agreement that the US should withdraw from Europe.

You find fault with the comparison of Hitler’s move into the Czechoslovakia with Putin’s move into Georgia. It seems the history courses at VMI have changed in the last 40 years as it pertains to the Sudetenland. Just what are you teaching today’s Rats about the start of WWII? As for making Russia less cooperative, this implies they have been cooperative. Do you really believe that? Or do you mean that Russia can be even more uncooperative than it has?

As to your musing about political and economic corruption, I guess the Lexington News-Gazette does not carry many reports about france.

I am a bit surprised you chose to use the term separatists, why not the more accepted term “freedom fighters”? But you do raise a good point about the deaths of Russian peacekeepers. If the Russian peacekeepers were really keeping the peace then it would seem Georgia would not have to respond to attacks by these freedom fighters.
If Russia should decide to invade or deploy “peacekeepers” to say the Ukraine with an ethnic Russian population of 30%, it would be, following your logic, both a rational decision and should be accepted by the West. Actually they could do this with a large number of nations in Eastern Europe including the Baltic nations.

This seems almost a paleoconservative point of view. Putin is only protecting his rightful national interests in his own backyard, which don't really conflict with the West. We should cut a deal with our natural ally Putin to keep out of each other's proper sphere of influence. It seems this is just what the EU and NATO have done. What you are suggesting is we should go no future. It seems this is what the Europeans prefer.

Then again I could have misread what you are saying. Maybe you are saying Putin’s recognition of South Ossetia's independence was no different from our own in breakaway Kosovo. So America is just as bad. Russia's attack is the moral equivalent of America arbitrary actions in Yugoslavia. Or is your point about Iraq and Saddam? At the end of the day this was really the fault of Georgia.

It appears you are going to continue believe Putin wants to democratize and reform Russia, integrate with NATO and the EU, and help fight radical Islam. We surely must believe him as your seem to. We just have to understand him more, embrace him and give more support. Maybe there should be a full court press to get Russia into the WTO NOW!

I love blaming the victim. One thing you have in common with Wess Mitchell is you both want to reward bad behavior.

Oh, Major Crosston what was the source and branch of your commission?



 
Unregistered User

August 23, 2008

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I am new here, so hope, I can comment comments as well?

I'd like to refer to Kosovo precedent.
Maybe recognition of Kosovo is doubtful... but we should not forget that president Clinton by pressure and somehow "wrenching arms" persuade Kosovars to agree on a status of Autonomous Republic inside Yugoslavia. That happened in February-March, 1999 (s.c. Rambuillet Agreement) i.e. right after massacre in Racak, in spite Hashim Tachi was against it... finally Albanians agree, US, UK agree... Serbs say - no. I hope we all remember that. Definitely position of Serbs was influenced from Moscow - where they had been told to go on, solve the problem using ethnic cleansing - and NATO would dare to do nothing.
Exactly this way Russians finally had solved Chechen problem. But Yugoslavia certainly is not Russia - "what is allowed to Jupiter is not allowed to the bull".
NATO had done utmost to stop ethnic cleansing in Kosovo... and in fact after everything happened, it was too hard to persuade Kosovars again to agree on autonomous status, status, they had already agreed on once but refused by Yugoslavia.

What we have in Georgia?
We have Russia, who de-facto recognizes and supports "independence" of Georgian break-away regions.
Georgian population ethnic cleansing (recognized by OSCE and UN GA resolutions)
Export of Russia officials as "independent" government members, and Russian passports to anyone else in the area.
Blocking all Georgian or International efforts to resolve the problem.
And decree Putin had signed just right before he left the presidential chair (if we can say he left it) - establishing direct official ties with the Georgia’s enclaves.
I say here nothing about Russian Federation railroad and any other type of troops, warplanes and lots of "irregulars" (like Cossacks or Chechen group "Vostok") deployed to the region quite befor actual war had started.

Thus situation with Georgian break-away regions is radically different from those in Kosovo/Yugoslavia.
 
Unregistered User

August 23, 2008

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joe stone, US Taxpayer, Bronze Contributor (24)

Dear Joe Stone,
First, I should like to thank you for supporting the idea of withdrawing US forces from Europe. I hope that more Americans will finally opt for a more considerate involvement in Europeans matters.
I shall try to comment on the main points of your considerations, where you criticize a very well-weighed and thoughtful article written by Matthew Crosston.
The idea of democratically elected leaders or a capitalist market economy is not cogent evidence credibly implying prosperity. Hitler was elected democratically and the system was menacing. Democracy and market economy are just tools which may or might not achieve a positive a result. For some “strange” reason the Chinese will take first place in the Olympic Games by far leaving behind any democracy. They have become a leading economy, which implies that the people are living a better life regardless of a communist regime. The problem with America is that, given a brisk history of just over 200 years, it perceives “democracy” as a remediation to all forms of social governance. Presently, the US has a gross debt of 53 trillion and that divided by the population makes an average debt of 221 thousand dollars per person. This I guess is a very deplorable result for a market economy and more so for a “model” democracy.
The remark was that Russia went too far in destroying Georgian military infrastructure. Russia conceives that the slaughter of 1492 South Ossetian civilians overnight and 12 of its peacekeepers was reason enough to plodder the Georgian military infrastructure. But, I democratically leave it to you to have your own opinion.
Cooperation with Russia. I gather your implication is that Russia has been uncooperative. I assume what you mean is not economic cooperation, which is quite on the rise. What you probably meant was that Russia is not too cooperative with NATO. Well, I think that it has been more than cooperative bearing in mind that the EU has been incorporating more and more member states, which in itself is fine as it makes the EU better economically united, if not for the US which stands on the threshold handing out entrance passes by first demanding submission to the requirements of its military block.
Hitler’s move into Czechoslovakia has a prehistory that you so vulnerably emitted and the outcome was 33 million perished in Russia alone. If you are fond of drawing parallels, I think your example of Czechoslovakia is a perfect match to Grenada, it was coiffed in the same deceive manner. It has been casual practice in western media to place Putin’s name next to Hitler’s, it makes western argumentation sound far more scrumptious. I believe many people have a lot of afflictive associations when they hear Bush’s name and that doesn’t require any back up of propaganda.
Occupation of South Ossetia Russian peacekeepers were only part of the peacekeeping contingent which functioned together with the Georgian peacekeeping forces. Russian peacekeepers have been supporting peace in the region for the last15 years, subject a UN mandate. The number of peacekeepers was also limited to a preset number. Within those 15 years there were no claims of any Russian occupation. The contingent of 588 men can hardly be called an occupational force worthy of mention if compare to US deployment of tens of thousand of American soldiers in Iraq and elsewhere without any UN mandate and acting to their own liking.
You were quite right about the Baltic countries and the Ukraine; Yushenko and his coalition are really looking for trouble. They should be very tolerant with the Russian population and withhold from any forms of discrimination, in which regretfully, the Baltic countries are not very clever at doing. I should add on to your comment by saying that some regions such as the Dzitomirskaya oblast, has an ethnical Russian population of over 85 %.
In the case of Kosovo, the US and a number of EU countries just bombed their argumentation into Belgrade following which; the “discussants” recognized Kosovo’s autonomy. This is a salient precedent for “resolving” similar conflicts. You can’t insist Russia to lay out any new rules to the “sovereignty” game once they have already been so cautiously arranged by such an honourable assembly of NATO countries. Gearing up Georgian military might against South Ossetia was just the next step in the same direction. Russia has no other choice, but to follow the formula. The difference is that Russia had a far better cause to apply force. The US administration rejects the slaughter of 1492 South Ossetians civilians was not an act of genocide. What was it then?
Rejection of Russia’s entrance into the WTO, insisting that Russia doesn’t have a market economy is another deterrent example of US casuistry , I would retaliate by saying that today’s US economy is a rather strange exotic and explicit example of a market economy bearing in mind the national debt of 53 trillion $. When this balloon flops, I can imagine how much of the US economy will be capable of crawling out from beneath the ruins. I must regret that Russia will also suffer, as it gets a lot of paper wrappings that they call dollars backed up by nothing other than the economy of other countries.
 
joe  stone

August 23, 2008

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valentin

Do you have a source for your 53 trillion dollars?
 
Heinrich  Bonnenberg

August 23, 2008

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To Valentine

Hitler was not elected democratically in a moral sense.
Please, apologize that I shall give a short lecture about the dirtiest chapter of German history.

On January 30, 1933 Hitler, leader of his party NSDAP with 37,8 % of the seats in the parliament Reichstag, was appointed by the Reichspräsident von Hindenburg to be the Reichskanzler of the cabinet of ministers, legally, but without election.

On February 27, 1933 the building of the parliament Reichstag was destroyed by fire. Hitler accused the Communist party being very strong to be guilty and arrested the Communist leaders by the Gestapo, Thälmann on March 3, 1933.
The unique machine of propaganda as well as of restless anxiety since years running headed by Goebbels was dramatically intensified. And on the other hand Hitler promised all the best, mainly privatizations of municipal property, labor and national acceptance, in that time of severe economic problems and of uncertainty. Hitler was the promising populist.

On March 5, 1933 in the elections of the Reichstag Hitler had no more a strong opposition, in this so called democratic election. His party NSDAP won 44% - only, but together with another right wing group his NSDAP elected Hitler to be Reichskanzler.

On March 24, 1933 the parliament Reichstag (except the Social Democrats) passed the resolution "Ermächtigungsgesetz" saying that all essential laws can be made by the cabinet of ministers under the leadership of the Reichskanzler Hitler, terminated for four years, which exactly in time Hitler always let been extended by the Reichstag for another four years.

On July 14, 1933 all partys were forbidden exept the NSDAP. The parliament Reichstag was no more valid.

All that Hitler did, he always did it following the constitution as a paper, not as a moral institution, not as a democrat, but as a niftier usurper. The Germans were really victimized and misled. He has taken us to hell, he was not democratically elected, but in fact he did it “legally”.
Frankly spoken, our constitution of that time, the first approach of a democratic constitution in German history had very dangerous paragraphs, dishonest for democracy, coming into existence as the German elites were more looking backwards than to future.
 
Member deleted

August 24, 2008

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To Levan Nadiradze

As you site quite a lot recent historical events so please let me site US view to clarify start of conflict in Georgia. The US ambassador to Moscow, John Beyrle, in a rare US comment endorsing Russia's initial moves in Georgia, described the Kremlin's first military response as legitimate after Russian troops came under attack.

"Now we see Russian forces, which responded to attacks on Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia, legitimately...", Beyrle told the newspaper. He said Washington had not sanctioned Georgia's initial actions when on August 8, after a succession of tense skirmishes, Georgian forces attacked South Ossetia, triggering a massive Russian reaction when its peacekeepers there came under fire. "We did not want to see a recourse to violence and force and we made that very, very clear," Beyrle was cited as saying in quotes the US embassy confirmed as accurate. "The fact that we were trying to convince the Georgian side not to take this step is clear evidence that we did not want all this to happen".

To your opinions about Kosovo case I have quite different view. I also remember Rambuillet Agreement. Why Serbs rejected it? I think that main reason was Agreement's appendix which de facto could mean occupation of Serbia by NATO troops. Which independent country (I am now excluding Puppet states and US lapdogs from this category) would agree with that. You mentioned also Racak, ethnic cleansing etc. This one-sided picture is already started to alter when people are starting to see the facts behind propaganda game.

I do not want to repeat my earlier opinion pieces here but if you are interested them you are welcome to visit in my Balkanblog http://arirusila.wordpress.com.
 
joe  stone

August 24, 2008

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Valentine

You seem to have a very high level of distain for democracies.

Equally you seem to hold communist nations in high regards.

Why is that?
 
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August 24, 2008

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For Joe Stone

No way Joe! I just can’t stand puppet regimes that the US endorse and claim to be “democracies.” If I had to choose, I would prefer communist China for life rather than “democratic” Georgia. There are more chances to survive.
Once again Joe, thanks for supporting US withdrawal from Europe, I think that was your main message.
Tags: | US democracy |
 
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August 24, 2008

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For Joe Stone

Dear Joe,
You can just load the words "53 trillion debt" into google search or follow: http://mwhodges.home.att.net/nat-debt/debt-nat.htm />
Cheers from Russia

Tags: | US debt |
 
joe  stone

August 24, 2008

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Valentine

The debt figures you reference are more than a bit distorted. Of course, there is no way that I should expect you to understand that or even vet those numbers. You are trying to make some point, which is lost on me.

Given your lack of understanding of both capitalism and democracies and it would seem this extends to credit markets as well, you might find it interesting to learn that debt in and of itself is not something that is bad. It really depends on why the debt is incurred. For example, I am in debt. I have a home mortgage. Now the question is that good debt or bad debt. I and my banker view it as good debt. It is debt, which I can service (my banker is happy) and it gives me a very nice place to live (I am happy). Equally I also have an asset. So what is missing in your understanding of debt and what is also missing in the link you provided is the asset side of equation.

Another interesting aspect of this is in a democracy, this was a choice I got to make. My home was not assigned or came as a reward as a results of position or service.

I could have easily have chosen to have rented instead of purchasing. I would not have incurred any debt but then I would not have an asset.

On the next level up, is my little town, which has just completed a golf course. It is being funded with a bond issue (debt). That debt is again captured I assumed in the numbers you cite. I would consider it to be good debt because the fees from play are paying off the bond issue. In fact, at the current rate it would appear the debt will be retired in about half the time. I would also say it is good debt because I happen to enjoy golf. Oh, and living in a democracy, the citizens of my little town got to vote as to whether we wanted to do this.

As to the US economy flopping, don’t worry about it. I surely am not. Besides given the Ruble crisis of 1998, I think the world has learned a lot since then.




 
Marek  Swierczynski

August 24, 2008

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@Mr Akishkin
With all due respect, what is the source of your toll-claim of 1492 - the number f the civilians you said were "slaughtered" by Georgian forces in South Ossetia? Because many media have published a reduced Russian toll - 133 dead - as seen here for instance http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7572635.stm
I realise you're free to have no respect to the BBC and other western media whatsoever - and you have a right to to do - but you should at least quote the source you base your views upon. Otherwise, your conclusions may be wrong.
Tags: | war toll | Georgia | BBC |
 
Unregistered User

August 24, 2008

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to Ari Rusila

I have read Mr. Ambassador's interview as Russian media were too glad to post and re-post it enormous number of times, but is that US view about the conflict? There are other opinions. I am running a media-blog, thus I have to read lots of articles and interviews, including of various officials from various states, including US.
You and me - we both leave in a free country, thus we express our opinions freely and I maintain the right to disagree with Mr. Beyrle saying that Russian army had a legitimate right to answer - i.e. destroy and rob Georgian military bases, civil objects, hospitals, schools, offices, banks... Blow up bridges blocking the railway, attack Poti harbor container terminal, burn Georgian forests dropping firebombs from military helicopters in a dozen locations.
French foreign minister has confirmed that Russians were planning to enter Tbilisi - if not EU interference.
We may surely say that Russia had a legitimate right to kill political refugee Litvinenko in London (as he was "enemy of state").
Also Russia has right to regard Poland as declaring Poland as 100% Russia’s nuclear target (deputy Chief of Staff Nogovitsyn explained that very clearly).
Russia has lots of right in fact - I know that quite well. Even better than Mr. Beyrle.
Probably you should know that well as well - you are from a wonderful country Finland. Therefore.

As for Rambuillet Agreement - maybe we can try to ask Serbs - would they be happy to have a time-machine?
Slobodan was provoked and "backed" by Russians to reject that agreement, which was clearly guarantee territorial integrity... of course increasing NATO influence much. Of course limiting Belgrade administrative rights in Kosovo. But again - do not forget that these negotiations happened after ethnic cleansing campaign in Kosovo. I think that was a miracle - that Kosovars agree to sign that agreement. I had a chance to see ICTY materials... but I am sure you know them much better as you work on those issues as I see.
But there are almost huge space for interpretation. And interpretation is based on personal view often.
I should confess that I do have personal position in Balkan wars. I am much pro-Croat - thus I may not be faithful to Serbs.
On the other hand - for me it's obvious, that Rambuillet Agreement was in that situation absolutely the best solution. But Russians were afraid of NATO and US influence there - that was the main reason why they argue Miloshevich to disagree. Unfortunately for his country - President Miloshevich do always trust Russians too much.



 
Unregistered User

August 24, 2008

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Sorry, forgot to identify myself - "Unregistered user's" reply to Mr. Rusila's opinion is posted by me.
Sorry again.
 
Member deleted

August 24, 2008

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To Levan

I sited Ambassador's statement because it was refreshing aberrant of the beaten track I do not believe it is official US position. I also agree with you that the responce of Russia seems to be exaggerrated. About Litvinenko murder there is many theories - I am note sure which one is the right one.

About Rambuillet we probably have different views. My understanding is that rejection of it by Serb side was related to annex which was unacceptable meaning de facto occupation. Was that annex US tactic to provocate Serbs to reject agreement or was it accident I do not know.

About ethnic cleansing you may find material from my blog and links (www.arirusila.wordpress.com) but what I always have been critical is the one-sided picture of Balkan event.

Thanks for your comment.
 
Unregistered User

August 25, 2008

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For Marek
I would be only too happy to learn that the death toll was overestimated. Though, I felt sick yesterday when the figure was again raised to 2100 following Russian’s vice military headquarters’ chief Nogovitsin report based on accounts of South Ossetian officials.
It could be that some of the people have been counted dead, as relatives on whose account the lists are being compiled by local authorities, have sought in vain to find their relatives, thus the missing people, I can assume have been automatically placed in the death toll list. I can only hope that further search efforts will reduce this grievous list. Estimating the figure by counting the bodies is not productive as many are still buried beneath the rubble of houses, where they sought shelter, or were totally demolished in the fires that followed the bombardment. Locals say the smell of decaying bodies near many ruins is unbearable.
 
Unregistered User

August 25, 2008

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For Joe Stone

Dear Joe,
Yes, right you are. Since the 1998 default Russia has learnt quite a few lessons. All the budgets ever since have a significant surplus.
Your elaborate scientific description of what is a good debt and bad one was very much appreciated. I also gathered that you are fond of golf, so I shall try to explain my point by using just the same golf course scientific financial terminology that the folks in your village are accustomed to.

The present value of future unfunded liabilities for Medicare, Social Security and other plans is $53 trillion.

Which in terms of golf means that the billiard pockets are set so immoderately apart and the average age of your pensioned links men will be such, that they will need a wheelchair and a couple of baby sitters to roll them around the golf course, whereas the golf equipment and the wheelchairs, granted as humanitarian help by some foreign fund, will be, beyond any doubt, tagged - (Made in China), if that is not already the case. I could go on commenting in the same terms on your national, mortgage debts, trade disparity etc. etc., which are all just as pitiful. Though, the biggest deficit that the US is suffering right now is, by far, not economic, but judicious "leadership."


Tags: | US debt |
 
joe  stone

August 25, 2008

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valentine

You are too funny.

You are sounding more and more like that shoe banging guy..............hehe
 
E. Ben Heine

August 26, 2008

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Dear Mr. Stone, Dear Mr. Akishkin,

Thank you for your many comments regarding this article, we very much appreciate your interest in the debate on atlantic-community.org

However, I must ask you both to kindly refrain from condescension and personal innuendo, in order to keep the debates on topic and maintain our basic principle of mutual respect.
Tags: | etiquette |
 
Heinrich  Bonnenberg

August 26, 2008

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Dear Mr. Heine,

in my comment at August 23rd I have spoken about the media war.

Please apologize both, our very honest friends Stone and Akiskin. They are examples being "captured" as instruments in the media war without having the possibility to realize that. Neverless all their arguments have really been very interesting, but both gentlemen have given all their comments as mercenaries of the fighting powers.

I am living in marvelous Berlin, with access to both side's information, frankly spoken in the secret capital of Europe, with phantastic intergration of many minorities, Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish, Bosnien, Portuguise, Turkish, Palestinian, and so on and so forth. We are looking all television programs and we are hearing all broadcastings, the Eastern with RTVI and the Western. And we are reading three Russian news papers written and printed in Berlin, beside many Western news papers, and we get weekly argumenti i facti from Moscow . Please believe me, we are experiencing a media war with the rare consequence that all fighters are losers.
Wake up, wake up!

Who is the trapper having installed the trap and who are the winners of the two wars of brothers in Europe as I have already asked in my comment at August 23 without getting any answer? One of the winners is China!

Gentlemen Stone and Askin, I beg your pardon if I have hurt you! But I have the opinion that you both are to much believing the information in your country. And please do not always feel to be provoked if somebody has a different opinion. Being provoked is always a sign of weakness!!!!

My comment: to the situation of today:
The persons in charge in Russia are top people. They can think and they can analyse. They have intelectual power, they are clerisy! The Russian president is lawyer knowing all facets of international law. He was a top successful student in St. Petersburg. But up to now, I did not get any serious analyses from our Western information chanals why do they act as they act.
If I discuss with my friends and colleagues in Berlin, we all do not understand the bow-wowing of our she-channcellor Merkel. She has just started her electoral campaign and is showing strength? It is a pity, wrong sterngth!
South Ossetia has declared its independence in 1990 (!!!), Abkhazia in 1992. Why is it forbidden to recognize them, finally. 15 Republics of USSR declared their independence from March 1991 till December 1991 and all where immedediately recognized by all Western countries, by Germany in front, and nobody was willing to preserve USSR. The same happened in Yugoslavia. We Western people should not be opportunistic carpers acting beneath our dignity!
It would be better to identify the trapper and to start negotiations with our Russian friends which are extremely necessary tor our common Europe as a strong player (market, technology, energy, social equity) fighting against competitors in East and West who are at present the winners of our war of brothers.
I recommend: http://www.taz.de/1/politik/europa/artikel/1/merkel-haette-schroede...
Our government is to much indoctrinated and bankrupt in ideas. Sorry!!!!!
Laotse: "If you think having attained the end one has in view, you are losing".
 
joe  stone

August 28, 2008

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Mr. Bommenberg,

It is not necessary for you to beg my pardon.

Since you really do not know the sources of my information and because my observations and opinions differs from yours then the only rational explanation for you is that I somehow must be captive of the media.

Speaking only of the media, all media is not created equally or stated a different way the freedom the media enjoys differs from nation to nation. Now you might completely believe the media in Russia enjoys the same freedoms as the media in the West. If you do in fact believe that then I can only hope you are in a very small minority. In truth what appears in the media is in most instances is more wrong than right. A view good example of the were the initial claims of genocide reported by the Russia media. Strange as it may be and a surprise to you Human Rights Watch has debunked this report.

Now with all due respect Mr. Bommenberg I find both your comment and judgment to be quite arrogant.

We can agree on several things. The first is in any war there are no winners. It is only a question of who loses the least. We can probably also agree that events occurring in Georgia will have unintended consequences. A third possible area of agreement is on the Ukraine becoming part of NATO. While Ukraine might view admission as a national aspiration, it is questionable if this is a prudent course of action for the current members of NATO. This could also be said of Georgia and for that matter all the former members of the Warsaw Pact. This last area of possible agreement I can assure you is be based on very differing reasons.

It would be interesting from your vantage point for you to identify what these unintended consequences might be. Of equal interest would be your assessment of the 16 April decree signed by outgoing President Putin.

 

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